And they made up the part about keeping a flame burning in the temple and tossed in a miracle for good measure?

Well, apparently there was plenty of oil for a fire, only most of had been desecrated or contaminated or something - was no longer holy. So there was only a day supply of oil that was still sacred and whole bunch of contaminated oil. But somehow that one days worth of holy oil, in the same building as a plentiful supply of not-so-holy oil managed to keep burning for eight days. Obviously a miracle occurred - because no other possible explanation springs to mind.

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Obviously a miracle occurred - because no other possible explanation springs to mind.

What a lameass miracle. OTOH, it's Nilly's favorite holiday because it's so low stress compared to the high holidays.

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Now you've done it. You've gone and put "evolution" and "religion" in the same sentence. That's like matter/anti-matter. We're all gonna fall into some black hole and IT WILL ALL BE YOUR FAULT.

Of course, the Cubbies will win the World Series, on the way, so it will all be worth it.

Hec, Trudy, part of what I think is a bunch of b.s. is that it's too [your adverb of choice] to teach about Christmas in the same manner that paper taught about Hanukkah. They put a summary of the Maccabees story and the Hanukkah prayers on a Hanukkah paper, and did so, without managing to make it look like they were teaching the kids to be Jewish, or worship according to the teachings of Judaism. There's no reason why there can't be a similar paper with a summary of the nativity story and a Christmas carol on a Christmas paper. That's all it would take. The Hanukkah paper was extremely well done.

Also, Hec, I think this is b.s.:

Christmas is kind of divorced from its origins for much of the country. I'm not sure of the numbers, but for a lot of people it's more of a cultural than religious event. It is for me anyway.

--particularly when it's coming from someone who has been known to bemoan the number of Christians in the country, around election time.

It's also b.s., because you're taking a result and using it to explain the cause. One of the (many) factors divorcing this particular holiday from its origins in our culture is how it's talked about and taught.

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Technically, it's not even a holiday (in the pedantic "holy day" sense), it's a festival. The *only* reason it's famous is because sometimes it's in the same month as Christmas.

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Well I always liked it as a kid cause I got Christmas gifts AND chanukah gelt . Also I really like latkes and homemade chopped liver.

Er the local left Jews think of it as celebrating a liberation struggle the victory of the Maccabees. And guerilla resistance. The reason it is a kids holiday is cause the when the Torah was about to be destroyed, the Maccabees buried it and had the kids play games above it. The Syrians did not think of searching for the Torah under the feet of the children. So the torah survived, and kids get money and sweets and things to play with in celebration of their having saved the Torah.

Oh and Cindy - fine you can point to one or two examples where Christianity gets treated unfairly. But overall a certain subset of Christians spends a hell of a lot of time bullying non-Christians. I actually think the religion on public property should either be non-existent or multi-cultural. Open to any religion who wants to put on a display or presentation or open to none. In this case it seems to be open to Judiasim and no-one else. I know a loca city council that did that too - put up a menorah but no Christmas tree. But as was the case at the airport (which is a hell of a lot bigger venue than a school or a small-town city hall) most case like that are still Christian. Some of the stuff a certain brand of Christian has pulled for a long time seems to have spread. I'm against it in all cases. But there is still one hell of a lot more happening with Christians (not all Christians but some) pushing other people around. The Christian bullying is not a result of the tiny non-Christian minority pushing them around.

Anyway Happy War on Christmas to all, and all a good night.

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--particularly when it's coming from someone who has been known to bemoan the number of Christians in the country, around election time.

I don't get why you think I'm being hypocritical. Is it an objection to a secularized Christmas? That I make claim to my (pagan) tree, xmas lights, Christmas novelty songs etc. with no interest whatsoever in Jesus Christ as my personal savior?

Maybe that's not what you're saying.

Anyway, I do think it's disingenous to worry about the Christ Story not being taught in school when the whole country is completely inundated with Christmas lore for 2 or 3 months a year. And there's no lack of genuine, Christian Christmas in there (as distinct from Santaland marketing). It's like bitching that there's no White History Month.

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Well, apparently there was plenty of oil for a fire, only most of had been desecrated or contaminated or something - was no longer holy. So there was only a day supply of oil that was still sacred and whole bunch of contaminated oil. But somehow that one days worth of holy oil, in the same building as a plentiful supply of not-so-holy oil managed to keep burning for eight days. Obviously a miracle occurred - because no other possible explanation springs to mind.

That was always my understanding, but Jessica seems to be saying there was a retcon in order to have sukkot late (a version I am completely unfamiliar with).

It's also b.s., because you're taking a result and using it to explain the cause. One of the (many) factors divorcing this particular holiday from its origins in our culture is how it's talked about and taught.

The non-religious Christmas customs have been practiced and dominant in this culture long before we went and got all eccumenical about thirty years ago. Trees? Cookies? Santa? Holly? Egg Nog? Huge. Heck, they're (except for Santa) dominant IN CHURCHES. About the only public religiosity I can think of is manger scenes.

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The reason it is a kids holiday is cause the when the Torah was about to be destroyed, the Maccabees buried it and had the kids play games above it. The Syrians did not think of searching for the Torah under the feet of the children. So the torah survived, and kids get money and sweets and things to play with in celebration of their having saved the Torah.

I didn't know this part. I love it!

Oh and Cindy - fine you can point to one or two examples where Christianity gets treated unfairly. But overall a certain subset of Christians spends a hell of a lot of time bullying non-Christians. I actually think the religion on public property should either be non-existent or multi-cultural. Open to any religion who wants to put on a display or presentation or open to none. In this case it seems to be open to Judiasim and no-one else. I know a loca city council that did that too - put up a menorah but no Christmas tree. But as was the case at the airport (which is a hell of a lot bigger venue than a school or a small-town city hall) most case like that are still Christian. Some of the stuff a certain brand of Christian has pulled for a long time seems to have spread. I'm against it in all cases. But there is still one hell of a lot more happening with Christians (not all Christians but some) pushing other people around. The Christian bullying is not a result of the tiny non-Christian minority pushing them around.

I don't know if you got to read the whole conversation or not, but I agree with all of this, Gar.

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Oh, I don't dislike Hanukkah (festival of fried potatoes!), I just get cranky that it's treated in the mainstream American consciousness as The Big Important Jewish Holiday when...nsm. It's a very nice holiday, but it's not the Jewish equivalent of Christmas just because they're both (sometimes) in December.

I was always taught that the miracle of the oil was a retcon - a story that grew after the fact, and had very little to do with the holiday's actual origins. (As I suspect is true of most festival holidays - humans rarely need a miraculous excuse to party, but it sure does sound good to have a story to tell at next year's bash...)

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I don't get why you think I'm being hypocritical. Is it an objection to a secularized Christmas? That I make claim to my (pagan) tree, xmas lights, Christmas novelty songs etc. with no interest whatsoever in Jesus Christ as my personal savior?

What? I would apologize for coming off like that, except I don't even know what I said that could be interpreted that way. I think your reasoning is b.s. I don't think you're being hypocritical, and since when did any of our personal observances come into this?

I don't like twisty arguments, so I'll just bow out.

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