Pewter Octopus Wine Aerator, for the wine lover on your Cephalopodmas list!

I meant that in the sense of the afterlife, ita. Sorry. I should have been more specific. It was just supposed to be a cute rejoinder, not an expression of an earnest expectation.

I've never read a single piece of ID propaganda that didn't boil down, at its core, to "This evolution stuff sounds really complicated. Maybe it was godaliens!" (Dembski in particular is brilliant at couching this in pseudoscientific language, but the man wouldn't recognize an actual biology text if it evolved teeth and bit him.)

So much of what comes from either evolution supporters or ID supporters reads like propaganda to me, that they all lose me. Just curious, did you read Dembski's response to Orr?

I've never read a single piece of ID propaganda that didn't boil down, at its core, to "This evolution stuff sounds really complicated. Maybe it was godaliens!"

It's the "God in the Gaps" argument only made more scientific sounding. If there isn't a complete explanation for how X evolved, then a supernatural entity must have made it happen through some unknown mechanism. So you end up arguing that blood clotting couldn't have evolved and then a bunch of people come up with explanations. Okay, then you move on to something else like the eye and there are more explanations. Then you move on to bacterial flagellum (the timeline isn't correct, I'm just making an example) and people can explain it but you find an aspect that isn't fully explained. So forth and so on...

Pewter Octopus Wine Aerator, for the wine lover on your Cephalopodmas list!

Sweet Jesus, I clicked on that link and thought, "That's the most frightening sex toy I've ever seen." I blame all of you, because I had a clean mind before I showed up here.

Just curious, did you read Dembski's response to Orr?

I'm reading it now, and it makes me clench my fists. The objections are not sound. He's not a scientist. For example, the fact that you don't have every single organism that represents an example of the evolution of a trait is not at all damning, and to expect it is ridiculous.

Just curious, did you read Dembski's response to Orr?

Yes, and it matches what I've seen of his before -- since he doesn't have a fucking clue what he's talking about, he pulls out the standard list of ID talking points. (Blah blah flagellum blah blah randomness hey look over there something shiny! inconclusionwewinkthxbye)

I can't help flashing back to that early episode of Friends where Ross and Phoebe debate evolution, which led to gems such as:

ROSS: Ok, Pheebs. See how I'm making these little toys move? Opposable thumbs. Without evolution, how do you explain opposable thumbs?
PHOEBE: Maybe the overlords needed them to steer their spacecrafts.

They shut the doors to the elevator lobby to block out the construction noise. Now every time someone uses the door, which is approximately every five seconds, the door shuts with a rattle-rattle-slam.

I barely noticed the construction noise. Rattling door slamming? Driving. Me. Apeshit.

I'd like to request some buffista Car-ma, as I'm in the final stages of buying a new (to me) car. Loan's approved, insurance is mostly ready; now I just need to close and register. If everything just goes smoothly, I will be a very happy car owner by tomorrow; however, there's some residual crap with the title of my last car (the one that got stolen and junked) that I thought had gone away, but apparently hasn't (it looks likes it's still in my name, but not at my address). I just hope that can be dealt with separately and won't hold up getting this one registered and on the road.

Yes, and it matches what I've seen of his before -- since he doesn't have a fucking clue what he's talking about, he pulls out the standard list of ID talking points. (Blah blah flagellum blah blah randomness hey look over there something shiny! inconclusionwewinkthxbye)

I don't even have enough understanding to see that. I'm not doubting your word. I trust you more than him or Orr, and I just want to know. Where is Dembski doing this, in any sense, where what he is saying is not true/correct/relevant to Orr's original points (or whatever)?

I'm reading it now, and it makes me clench my fists. The objections are not sound. He's not a scientist. For example, the fact that you don't have every single organism that represents an example of the evolution of a trait is not at all damning, and to expect it is ridiculous.

Okay, this level of assertion/refutation/rebuttal is where they lose me. I'm going to ask you questions. I know you're not a scientist, but I trust your opinion, and you almost certainly have a better understanding than I do, because at least you know what frustrates you. I just know I'm feeling frustrated. When you say the above, are you referring to what I've copied below, because I can't find where he's saying what you're saying he's saying, but I don't understand much of what he's saying.

**This last point about the absence of detailed Darwinian pathways is the Achilles heel of Orr’s criticism of Behe. Orr remarks that “Behe and his followers now emphasize that, while irreducibly complex systems can in principle evolve, biologists can’t reconstruct in convincing detail just how any such system did evolve.” To which Orr immediately adds, “What counts as a sufficiently detailed historical narrative, though, is altogether subjective.” This last point constitutes an damning admission — indeed, it gives away the store. Is Orr saying that evolutionary theory is in the business of telling historical narratives that are purely subjective. If so, how can it constitute a science? And if not, where are the detailed Darwinian pathways that could convince any unbiased bystander that the flagellum really did evolve by Darwinian means? Orr suggests that design theorists are tendentiously raising the bar of scientific evidence for Darwinism too high. But this is not the case. Without detailed, testable Darwinian pathways that produce irreducibly complex systems like the bacterial flagellum, why should anyone believe that such pathways exist at all? Note that ID theorists are not, as Orr intimates, asking for the actual history of the flagellum. That history might have taken any number of paths. Rather, we are asking for even one path — one detailed enough to assess whether the Darwinian mechanism could in fact produce the flagellum and systems of comparable complexity.

**One theme that Orr has played up is the idea of evolution working by borrowing components, folding in novel components into evolving structures, components that are dispensable initially but then become indispensable over time. As a sheer possibility, this might account for how a bacterial flagellum might emerge. But where is the evidence? Orr doesn’t present any. Instead, he describes a hypothetical scenario in which GPS devices, though for now dispensable in automobiles, might in fifty years prove indispensable as GPS systems get used to drive our cars. An interesting speculation, no doubt. But then Orr adds a completely misleading conclusion: “At that point, G.P.S. would no longer be an attractive option; it would be an essential piece of automotive technology. It’s important to see that this process is thoroughly Darwinian: each change might well be small and each represents an improvement.” THOROUGHLY DARWINIAN??? This is technological evolution, with each point in the process superintended by intelligence. Moreover, the changes at any stage are hardly gradual — a GPS placed into an automobile does not fall under what Darwin called “numerous, successive slight modifications.”

**Equally misleading is (continued...)