So there is something I can do, besides scream like a woman?

Wesley ,'Chosen'


The Great Write Way  

A place for Buffistas to discuss, beta and otherwise deal and dish on their non-fan fiction projects.


deborah grabien - Jul 13, 2003 2:04:00 pm PDT #1579 of 10001
It really doesn't matter. It's just an opinion. Don't worry about it. Not worth the hassle.

So, I sent the BNNs (Bad Novel Not-Novelists) the following email:

OK - I've put a large chunk of the past three days into this, and we need to get together to discuss this. I have about twelve pages of notes (typewritten), and then I gave up. We need to sit down and go over what's wrong here.

I don't want to be discouraging about this, but I have to tell you, while I think you may be able to fix it, the book has some serious fundamental problems - as in, you've missed on the basics of writing fiction - associated with it. You're going to need to perform some major basic surgery on this - literally, from the ground up - before you give this to an agent or an editor to read. Right now, going by the first 55 pages, this isn't publishable fiction.

We should get together, you should bring notebooks or other devices with which to take notes, and we can go over this.

Did you want to do this tomorrow? If you're committed to fixing it, the sooner the better, I'd say.

And, that's all, folks. I'll meet with them, scream at them, collect my hundred bucks (which is really, really not enough for the headache I've got, thanks to worrying at this bloody excuse for a book), and then it's their problem.

In the immortal words of Popeye - that's all I can stands, I can't stands no more.


Betsy HP - Jul 13, 2003 2:18:05 pm PDT #1580 of 10001
If I only had a brain...

You did the right thing, Deb.


Susan W. - Jul 13, 2003 2:24:44 pm PDT #1581 of 10001
Good Trouble and Righteous Fights

I'd be very interested to know if they're able to "get it" after you meet with them. I'm not so elitist that I believe fiction writing can't be taught--i.e. with work and study, IMO a mediocre talent could do good work, a naturally good writer could become outstanding, etc.--but I also think there's a literary equivalent of tone deafness. And if a person doesn't have at least a rough instinctive grasp on how to show instead of tell, just from his/her lifetime of reading, I'm inclined to believe that person is storytelling deaf.

I mean, I look back at what I attempted to write in high school. I cringe at it, because it's all semi-autobiographical MarySues with long curly blue-black or auburn hair and vividly sky blue or cat green eyes. But, I already knew how to structure a scene, and wasn't especially prone to telling rather than showing.

(Which is not to say I never violate the show-don't-tell rule, or scramble tenses mid-paragraph, etc. Just that I've got a certain amount of inborn feel for what works and why. The one common error that I can honestly say I don't make is confusing, head-hopping POV shifts, and not just because I'm currently writing in first-person. Even in third person, keeping it clear whose head I'm in has always come easily to me.)


Anne W. - Jul 13, 2003 2:26:01 pm PDT #1582 of 10001
The lost sheep grow teeth, forsake their lambs, and lie with the lions.

Deb, it'll sting, but someone gave me much the same message long ago, and it made all the difference in the world. You did the right thing.


Betsy HP - Jul 13, 2003 2:34:03 pm PDT #1583 of 10001
If I only had a brain...

I'm not so elitist that I believe fiction writing can't be taught--i.e. with work and study, IMO a mediocre talent could do good work,

But it's like martial arts. ita could walk into krav maga and be a solid student immediately, because she had a foundation of solid technique. I just started tai chi, and I kept falling off balance and forgetting what move I'd just been shown. The difference is that I'm starting from ignorance and ita is starting from experience.

Deb's friends are starting far enough down that they don't need her help. They need Creative Writing 101.


deborah grabien - Jul 13, 2003 2:43:11 pm PDT #1584 of 10001
It really doesn't matter. It's just an opinion. Don't worry about it. Not worth the hassle.

You know, it's basics. A novel begins with characters, individuals: they don't have to be likeable or sympathetic by they do have to be distinct, have failures, have quirks, eat cookies or like to rollerblade or any damned thing you like, but they must, must, must have something to which the reader can respond, if only by recognition.

This thing has none. You can interchange dialogue between the male and female characters. And the ones that are "quirky"? You can see the author with a cheatsheet.

In a novel, those characters go on a journey. They begin, they do things, there are things they want and things to fear and all the paraphenalia of humanity, that makes a story. Something resolves, however gently or loudly.

See point one: no believable characters. If you have no individual real characters, how can they go on a journey? They don't exist.

Ditto what I personally define as plot (hey, they asked me to help, they get my definition), which in my writing reality is the mechanics of the story: how the characters get from point A to point B to point C.

They've got nothing. The characters are unreal, everything sounds like it's being pitched to Tim Robbins' character in "The Player", you can see the authors tossing back the "ooh, let's make this have an abusive show biz managing mama!"

I hate this. I hate hate hate this. How did I wind up doing no work on Matty all weekend, to deal with this?


erikaj - Jul 13, 2003 3:14:53 pm PDT #1585 of 10001
Always Anti-fascist!

I'm sorry to hear this...that would be my fear. But also kind of Nelson Muntz because it isn't mine so I can point and say "Ha Ha!". Poor Deb, though.


Susan W. - Jul 13, 2003 4:05:52 pm PDT #1586 of 10001
Good Trouble and Righteous Fights

But it's like martial arts. ita could walk into krav maga and be a solid student immediately, because she had a foundation of solid technique. I just started tai chi, and I kept falling off balance and forgetting what move I'd just been shown. The difference is that I'm starting from ignorance and ita is starting from experience.

Deb's friends are starting far enough down that they don't need her help. They need Creative Writing 101.

Hmm. I don't think I have an iota of natural skating talent, but I have learned how to skate--it just took me longer than it does more talented people. However, sports are pretty much just more complicated versions of moving your body and manipulating objects. So if you can walk, you can learn to skate, and if you can pick up an object, you can learn to swing a baseball bat--some people are just a heck of a lot better at it than others.

So maybe I am being arrogant here in thinking there are people out there who just can't write fiction. But I still think the music analogy might hold more than the sports one. And AFAIK, there really ARE people who are truly tone deaf, and therefore could never be turned into singers no matter how much they tried. I'm inclined to believe the same is true of any of the arts (I don't think I could ever learn to paint passably well, for example). But, of course I could be wrong.

Off to get groceries and go skating--back in a few hours.


Betsy HP - Jul 13, 2003 4:21:30 pm PDT #1587 of 10001
If I only had a brain...

I'm not saying these people can't be taught. I'm saying that they can't waltz into a high-level course, which is what Deb has to offer. They need to start in the beginner class.

There are people who are very very good at teaching beginners, and who enjoy it. Deb isn't enjoying it, by her own telling. She's happy to brush up competent work, but miserable trying to correct fundamental mistakes.


Betsy HP - Jul 13, 2003 4:26:29 pm PDT #1588 of 10001
If I only had a brain...

And AFAIK, there really ARE people who are truly tone deaf, and therefore could never be turned into singers no matter how much they tried.

Recent research proves this false. Nobody is tone deaf. Some people haven't been taught to listen, or learn to listen slowly. But anybody can be taught to distinguish musical tones, and to produce them him/herself. This makes me happy.