I was thinking more along the lines of "what happened" then nuh uh.

Record's still mostly ties.

"No, he's a really nice guy, it's just that..."

...he smells like dead fish.
...he can't hold down a job.
...he lives with his ex-girlfriend's parents.

Just sifting through ideas.

They're not bad. The noodles, I mean. That's a Madison joint that's been expanding. Nice when you want something quick and easy, but not fast food.

and is sometimes used--or better said--wielded by guys with a chip on their shoulders about the nice v. bad dichotomy

There's been a spectactular example of that roaming around the letters section of Salon for the last couple of months, a self-described nice guy who is seething with rage at all the shallow, shallow women who won't give him the time of day. Gradually, over the course of many months of others attempting to engage with him, he's told his whole story.

Apparently he spent several years lavishing attention on a female friend for whom he secretly pined, never actually being direct and telling her how he felt or asking her out; he helped her through some rough spots, was a shoulder to cry on, was her pick-you-up-at-the-airport-at-2-a.m. person, and felt that because of this he was entitled to her love even though he'd never told her. She eventually fell in love with someone else, bringing down his wrath and her own bafflement -- all this time he'd been a true and trusty friend, never breathing a romantic word or even a syllable; how was she to know? And now he feels entitled, and robbed, and convinced that all women are horrible horrible users.

The feeling of most of the other men in the letters section, and all of the women, is that it's his tough luck. He spent years passive-aggressively investing time and energy in a friendship not for its own sake, but for the sake of some emotional payoff he wanted his friend to intuit without his having to risk anything emotionally himself by, you know, saying anything.

The general consensus among the letter-writers is that (a) your feelings don't ever really confer much responsibility on anyone else, and confer absolutely none if you're too passive to state them; (b) if your unspoken expectations are dashed, you have nobody to blame but the person who failed to speak them; and (c) people who insist on living as though (a) and (b) aren't true, and feeling aggrieved when the rest of the world doesn't conform to their seekrit wishes, may think they're nice but in fact are not.

(And, fwiw, I can't possibly imagine college tommyrot, even on his very worst days, coming anywhere within shouting distance of the crazymeltyland of this particular "nice" guy on his very best days.)

After months of wading through this "nice" guy's bile, I don't think I could ever describe any guy I wanted to set a friend up with as nice. Kind, definitely, or a mensch.

There was a massive huge discussion on someone's blog about a year ago, lasting several months, about bad boys vs. good guys vs. "nice" guys, with lots of input from both genders and every possible point on the bad/good/nice spectrum. I should try to dig through my history and see if I can find it.

"No, he's a really nice guy, it's just that..."

...he refuses to admit that he's a Cylon sleeper agent.
...he spends more time at the zoo watching penguins than he does with me.
...he steals candy from babies.

your feelings don't ever really confer much responsibility on anyone else, and confer absolutely none if you're too passive to state them

Amen, sister. It can be more than unfortunate when it doesn't work out the way you'd wished, but you can't love someone into loving you.

I've tried to explain this to some guys, but I guess it's the sort of thing you need to work out for yourself. Perhaps if I tell them they'll get their own version of Nora when they're done, it'll help.

::blush::

Today ita is my favorite!

(And, fwiw, I can't possibly imagine college tommyrot, even on his very worst days, coming anywhere within shouting distance of the crazymeltyland of this particular "nice" guy on his very best days.)

Yay!

Also, I've done the "secretly pining for someone but didn't tell her" thing, but when it didn't work out I knew that I only had myself to blame....

It can be more than unfortunate when it doesn't work out the way you'd wished, but you can't love someone into loving you.

Well, occasionally you can, but the key part is that you actually inform the someone of your intent.

I shudder to think of all the time and energy I wasted through high school and college and embarrassingly far beyond with silent pining, trying to make this friend or that love me through the sheer power of my (silent, cryptic, completely passive) mind.

Took me a while to realise that being a hyper passive-aggressive son of a bitch didn't really make me "nice".

I had some of this too. There's a kind of bitterness that comes from feeling like you're being passed over for being "nice" but eventually you have to realize that bitterness and the behavior it inspires stem from emotional immaturity, and it's the latter factor that's a big part of the problem. I had already started to realize it on my own and change my behavior and attitude, but it finally sunk in when I met a guy who reminded me a lot of myself at his age and I could actually see how annoying that behavior was to others.

I shudder to think of all the time and energy I wasted through high school and college and embarrassingly far beyond with silent pining, trying to make this friend or that love me through the sheer power of my (silent, cryptic, completely passive) mind.

It's even worse when, in retrospect, I realize how many REALLY BLATANTLY OBVIOUS openings I was being given, if only I'd had the balls to say something. Thank the gods I met DH early in college and stopped dealing with that bullshit once and for all.