I agree with Jars that change has to come from within the society. We can offer pressure to change and support and whatever is needed, but we can't step in and force it to happen. Otherwise it smacks too much of the Neocon's worldview of "We know what is right for you and we're going to make you do it" and we all see how well THAT worked out.
Nothing worse than a monster who thinks he's right with God.
Mal ,'Heart Of Gold'
Natter 43: I Love My Dead Gay Whale Crosspost.
Off-topic discussion. Wanna talk about corsets, duct tape, or physics? This is the place. Detailed discussion of any current-season TV must be whitefonted.
Scrappy - Apr 05, 2006 1:35:04 pm PDT #8990 of 10001
Life moves pretty fast. You don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.
Trudy Booth - Apr 05, 2006 1:36:02 pm PDT #8991 of 10001
Greece's financial crisis threatens to take down all of Western civilization - a civilization they themselves founded. A rather tragic irony - which is something they also invented. - Jon Stewart
First off, I think it's pretty likely at least one person's raped a pizza delivery person. The pedant in me requires I state that.
THe codicil was intended to be perpetual.
I do feel completely comfortable in the position that correlation is not causation. Just because it happens more often to women doesn't mean it happens more often because we're women.
Correlation doesn't always equal causation, but sometimes it does.
(pendant note: fake numbers)
A million non-prisoners are raped. Ten of them are men raped by men. Five of them are men raped by women. Three of them are women raped by women. The other 900,000+ are women raped by men. It's not "more often" its "almost always". There is SOME reason for this amazingly disproportionate result. Occams razor arguably indicates that gender has something to do with it.
Trudy Booth - Apr 05, 2006 1:39:09 pm PDT #8992 of 10001
Greece's financial crisis threatens to take down all of Western civilization - a civilization they themselves founded. A rather tragic irony - which is something they also invented. - Jon Stewart
I think this is a wonderful idea, but that saying 'this is bad and wrong and you must stop it because it disgusts me' is very much the wrong way to go about it. Education within these societies, by these societies is key, and hopefully with more education, the problem will eradicate itself.
It's bad and its wrong and they must stop it because it disgusts me and anybody with half a brain both in and outside of the society. Cultural understanding affects how one changes it (supporting movements within rather than getting all white knight and imperialist) but not that one changes it.
And the problem doesn't eradicate its self. It's brave people in the society its self that eradicate the problem.
§ ita § - Apr 05, 2006 1:43:23 pm PDT #8993 of 10001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
There is SOME reason for this amazingly disproportionate result. Occams razor arguably indicates that gender has something to do with it.
And just as arguably it argues for any given other commonality between the victims that is perceptible to the perpetrators.
I have offered one, but just one you don't agree with. I don't know if Occam likes either of us any more than the other.
ChiKat - Apr 05, 2006 1:45:24 pm PDT #8994 of 10001
That man was going to shank me. Over an omelette. Two eggs and a slice of government cheese. Is that what my life is worth?
I believe Occam would say that he likes both of you. And carrots.
Jars - Apr 05, 2006 1:46:43 pm PDT #8995 of 10001
It's brave people in the society its self that eradicate the problem.
Yes, this. In the society itself. We can lead by example, yes, but I don't think I have any more right to step into that culture and say something is wrong than I do into American culture because I think capital punishment is wrong.
§ ita § - Apr 05, 2006 1:51:54 pm PDT #8996 of 10001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
I don't think I have any more right to step into that culture and say something is wrong than I do into American culture because I think capital punishment is wrong
Does education from without count as stepping in? Boycotts? Political sanctions?
Jars - Apr 05, 2006 1:56:59 pm PDT #8997 of 10001
I would say that those are external pressures which might trigger change from within for what we see as the better, which would be a good thing, but that those things might also have no or the opposite effect. What they probably will do is assuage the guilt of people on the outside. If they also cause societal change that benefits people within, then so much the better.
eta that on that note, I'll have to go to bed, as I have a project to write tomorrow. Which this discussion has actually been quite helpful in framing for me.
§ ita § - Apr 05, 2006 2:01:54 pm PDT #8998 of 10001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
I would say that those are external pressures which might trigger change from within
Your original statement read much more like everyone outside should sit back and let the culture itself take care of things. I only have so much respect to go around. We all draw our lines in different places, but there's no way I can take a stance against all external influence.
Strega - Apr 05, 2006 2:11:17 pm PDT #8999 of 10001
It's not "more often" its "almost always". There is SOME reason for this amazingly disproportionate result.Yes, but the correlation doesn't tell you what that reason is. Parents rape their own children significantly more often than children rape their parents, or parents rape other people's children, or children rape other children, etc. Does Occam's razor indicate that there's something inherent in parenting that predisposes you to rape your child?
I'm comfortable saying that men who rape women are not embracing sexual equality. I just don't know what that proves about the feelings the vast majority of men have toward women.
Also, A Way to End Female Genital Cutting. Oddly enough, it takes a village.