Wild monkey love or tender Sarah McLachlan love?

Xander ,'Him'


Literary Buffistas 3: Don't Parse the Blurb, Dear.

There's more to life than watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer! No. Really, there is! Honestly! Here's a place for Buffistas to come and discuss what it is they're reading, their favorite authors and poets. "Geez. Crack a book sometime."


Nutty - Jan 08, 2007 5:17:16 pm PST #1832 of 28172
"Mister Spock is on his fanny, sir. Reports heavy damage."

Lemme splain. No, is too much. Lemme sum up. Christians are delicious to lions and also very flammable. Declining empires have great fun with same. Eastern half of empire (much less decline-y) wins a battle after some vague cross-y dream symbolism. Christians become much less delicious to lions and are dosed with flame-retardant.

Churches spread westward, and as usual the white people screw it up. Eastern and western churches get divorced. There are a bunch of councils about itty bitty doctrinal issues hardly anybody cares about (anyway, 96% of the laity is illiterate, so you could have told them the Bible is full of evil overlord aliens and -- wait, wrong religion). Rome does a bunch of land-grabs, and develops an army, and stays in Rome despite the Holy Roman Empire slowly migrating into Germany. There are oblations and plagues and processions in the streets against plagues and xenophobic land-grab crusades and various orders that pun in Latin. (The Dominicans? domini canes, hounds of the lord. They were the prosecutors in the Inquisition.)

And then? A bunch more white people screw it up. They get divorced from the Roman church in various flavors of protest and/or gigantic land grab. Rome reforms, the Jesuits get started, there are a bunch more wars and massacrees and altogether re-enactments of material from "Alice's Restaurant." And now we're up to about 1650 -- lather, rinse, repeat.

So, really, it's all about divorces, land-grabs, and itty bitty doctrinal issues. Also being put to death in exciting and distinctive format, that others may be lessoned in morality by how well you bore being sliced to death with sharpened edges of envelopes.

Wait, I left out the invention of cheese: orders of monks are key in the invention of cheese.


Topic!Cindy - Jan 08, 2007 5:21:45 pm PST #1833 of 28172
What is even happening?

Churches spread westward, and as usual the white people screw it up. Eastern and western churches get divorced. There are a bunch of councils about itty bitty doctrinal issues hardly anybody cares about (anyway, 96% of the laity is illiterate, so you could have told them the Bible is full of evil overlord aliens and -- wait, wrong religion). Rome does a bunch of land-grabs, and develops an army, and stays in Rome despite the Holy Roman Empire slowly migrating into Germany. There are oblations and plagues and processions in the streets against plagues and xenophobic land-grab crusades and various orders that pun in Latin. (The Dominicans? domini canes, hounds of the lord. They were the prosecutors in the Inquisition.)

Yes, but it had already gone from Weird Jews to Screwed Up White People with lots of money and power way before the east/west splits, crusades, inquisitions, etc.


Nutty - Jan 08, 2007 5:28:02 pm PST #1834 of 28172
"Mister Spock is on his fanny, sir. Reports heavy damage."

Yes, but did the Orthodox High Muckety Muck of Russia ever claim that Russia was in France? No! Although, by the way Hil, I forgot to mention that there was a second Babylonian Captivity, although it was in Avignon, which as captivities go isn't too bad, but anyway there were Popes and anti-Popes, and they never met so as not to cause a massive nuclear explosion.

And then the Papacy moved back to Rome, which is good, because I'm not sure Michelangelo would have traveled all the way to Avignon.


Ginger - Jan 08, 2007 5:29:13 pm PST #1835 of 28172
"It didn't taste good. It tasted soooo horrible. It tasted like....a vodka martini." - Matilda

There may have been crossy-dream symbolism, or it may have been purely political.

There was also regular persecution of the Jews, selling absolution, adding celibacy so that monks would have no one else to leave their money to, bishops who were criticized for having "too many" illegitimate children, the ever-multiplying number of saints' incorruptible body parts, Benedictine and possibly champagne.


Connie Neil - Jan 08, 2007 5:43:37 pm PST #1836 of 28172
brillig

IE, a good idea got taken over by committees and it all went to hell.


Hil R. - Jan 09, 2007 1:36:50 am PST #1837 of 28172
Sometimes I think I might just move up to Vermont, open a bookstore or a vegan restaurant. Adam Schlesinger, z''l

Hee. I think all this is making me a tiny bit more confused, but a whole lot more entertained. (I know stuff up until the second Temple from Hebrew school. I know from the Middle Ages onward from ninth grade history. It's that in-between part that I don't know so well.)

Well, except for the parts that I know from various plays and musicals. What got me to start reading the New Testament was this conversation in a museum:

Dad (reading caption on painting): Christ in the Garden of Gethsamane. Not sure what that is.
Me: It's where Jesus went to talk to G-d before the crucifixion, praying and then accepting that he had to sacrifice.
Sister: How do you know all this stuff?
Me: .... Jesus Christ Superstar.

I figured I ought to get some slightly more conventional sources.


Frankenbuddha - Jan 09, 2007 4:10:25 am PST #1838 of 28172
"We are the Goon Squad and we're coming to town...Beep! Beep!" - David Bowie, "Fashion"

I figured I ought to get some slightly more conventional sources.

Oh, but where's the fun in that?


Kate P. - Jan 09, 2007 5:23:02 am PST #1839 of 28172
That's the pain / That cuts a straight line down through the heart / We call it love

Jesus Christ Superstar

Ha! That's where most of my knowledge of the Bible comes from, too. And also Godspell.


sumi - Jan 09, 2007 5:23:39 am PST #1840 of 28172
Art Crawl!!!

Hil, was that image you linked to by Fra Lippo Lippi? The site won't let me in.

I checked my books and I have a lovely book called The Painted Prayer about Books of Hours and the only St. Agatha it has is a teeny tiny image that is part of an image of all saints. (So tiny, that even though the caption said she was there I couldn't tell which one she was.)


Topic!Cindy - Jan 09, 2007 6:59:51 am PST #1841 of 28172
What is even happening?

Connie, your comment cracked me up (because I have a committee meeting, tonight. Q.E.D.).

Me: .... Jesus Christ Superstar.
I love JCS. I have never seen Godspell, and keep meaning to get a copy of it.

Hil, I think religious communities of hermits/monks, nuns and the like started within the first couple of centuries. When Christians were on the run at different times, they formed religious communities in the desert. From the beginning though (which you can even see in the first generation, with Jesus and his followers) there was a tendency to assemble into communities.

In the cities throughout the Roman Empire, all the first "churches" were house churches. From what I understand, they were pretty autonomous, but they followed the lead of the Apostles/Jerusalem Council. The epistles (letters) you see in the NT are either pastoral (personal letters to a leader), ecclesiastical (to a particular community), or general (to all the communities). As far as I know, it seems these generally ended up being copied and circulated among the other communities in different cities.

There wasn't an official office of priest (at least one that translates into the English of that title) among the Christians discussed in the NT, as far as I know. Christianity does have this concept of the priesthood of all believers though, and that Jesus is High Priest (there's a lot about that in the NT book of Hebrews). Because the very first Christians were still practicing Jews, they continued to go up to the Temple where, of course, there already were priests.

I'm not all that clear on how the roles of bishop and deacon you can see in the NT birthed the office of priest, because it's not part of my own tradition. From what I do know of it, Roman Catholic tradition traces a line from the apostles to the priesthood, but acknowledges the apostles as both the first bishops and priests, I think. I believe they recognize Jesus's institution of communion (the Last Supper a.k.a. the Eucharist) and his instruction for them to continue the rite in his memory as the first ordination. They consider those taught by the apostles to administer the Eucharist and baptize (and administer the other rites the RC church recognizes as sacraments), as the next generation of priests, and so-forth. There's this whole big, very specific idea of apostolic succession, which they tie back to that verse about Peter being the rock. Roman Catholic tradition teaches that Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. Pope was special recognition (eventually) given to the bishop at Rome, who in RC teaching is Christ's vicar on earth.

You can see where some itty bitty seeds of administrative layers were planted in Acts, which talks about the first big waves of conversion; communal living among believers; the Jerusalem Council; the Apostles (generally "Apostle" is reserved for the original followers of Jesus, and yet it includes Paul, because of the experience he had on the road to Damascus); the Seven who were appointed to oversee charitable concerns (in response to an argument between Koine speakers and Aramaic speakers, about the treatment of their respective widows); and disciples in other cities (usually the earliest converts). Of course none of this seems to be as big or formal as what you'll see once the empire and the church co-mingle, which happened well after the time period covered in Acts.

You'll also find the first martyr (Stephen, one of the Seven); Paul's conversion; arrests of various leaders (including Peter and John); and the earliest journeys (some intentional, some because they were fleeing) in Acts, as well as some of the early concerns regarding both doctrine and praxis, like -- "Do we make the Gentiles convert to Judaism first, or not?" and "How can we/do we have to observe the dietary laws if we're with the Gentiles?" This is something Paul touches on in some of his epistles, too. Pretty much, the four gospels and Acts are the only intentional history. The rest of the books (continued...)