When Rhett carries Scarlett up the stairs (surely he had back trouble later in life), the vibe I get is the "I have beaten down your resistance, foolish woman, because I am mighty," as opposed to a vibe of "Okay, so, you're cool with this, then? Let's get it on!"

In the movie, for sure. There was nothing that showed her internal change from "Drucken ass!" to "Do me now!" - only that weird humming and playing with her hair the next morning.

It was a fucked up and dangerous game and based on dishonesty. I am glad it's gone.

Well, going, maybe. I was informed in 1989 by an female friend that men should just know when "no" meant "yes," and that having someone shove me up against the wall and just have their way with me would be a wonderful addition to my life. And she was apparently a) serious and b) not aware that she was saying she though a bit of rape would do me good.

We're not friends anymore. Funny, that.

Now see, I believe that having an encounter up against a wall might be a nice addition to someone's life, but I wouldn't have expressed that exactly in the way that your now-former friend put it.

I'd love an encounter up against the wall, with the right person. But we'd be having our way with each other.

For sure!

I see and can completely agree with all of the discussions, and I haven't had enough coffee yet -- weird insomnia night, ugh -but what I got now is agreeing with Aims:

Like Amy said, I'm reading this through the eyes of my own experiences and quite frankly, angry sex is some of the best sex I've ever had.

We're applying the lens of the 21st century redux to Scarlett and Rhett's actions -- Mitchell write Scarlett and being pretty completely a product OMG could it be more patriarchal and stifling society. How can she say yes? Scarlett's whole personality and character is that of a woman who has only been taught the word no, and there is no word for yes.

How can she say it, when she doesn't know it exists? She feels the meaning, but it's not in her vocabulary. It's all non, nein, nyet -- a oui or a si has been kept from her.

Frankly, my dears, she can't say "yes." Am I condoning Rhett's behavior in the modern world, is it sexist, is it brutal, is it date-rape, has the scene backed the whole no-means-yes thing? Good questions.

Damn, I don't even like Scarlett, but this scene just doesn't ping me. Scarlett can't ever say "yes" to anything she wants in that society -- is that wrong? Hell to the yeah! But is she without agency, even though she's without vocabulary? Er, no.

I just cannot read Scarlett and Rhett from a 21st century feminist perspective. She is so totally a product of the time -- how can you remove Scarlett from context? GWTW is ALL context. The antebellum South is, in some ways, the biggest character is the book.

The antebellum South is, in some ways, the biggest character is the book.

Wrod

Scarlet had told Rhett a while before that scene (like, months before, if not years) that she didn't want to have any more babies, and therefore she didn't want to have sex with him anymore. She said she'd be locking her door at night, and he said something like, "If I want you, no lock can keep me out." And they hadn't had sex since then. There had been an earlier scene, when she found out she was pregnant with Bonnie, she said that she knew there were ways to get rid of a pregnancy, and Rhett was horrified and said absolutely not, because he'd once seen a young woman die from complications from an abortion.

I'm not sure what this means in terms of consent within that scene. I can kind of argue it either way.

It's not clear in the movie, but I think it's pretty clear in the text that the point where she stopped resisting and started enjoying it was on the stairs. I'm not sure whether it can be called rape, then, since there's no indication that she was resisting by the time they actually got to the bedroom.

On the "good girls say no" thing, I've had several discussions with my mother where she said that "no means no" isn't really a good rule, since plenty of girls will say no just because they think they're supposed to, when they really do want to have sex.

I've had several discussions with my mother where she said that "no means no" isn't really a good rule, since plenty of girls will say no just because they think they're supposed to, when they really do want to have sex.

That's why I think an enthusiastic yes is much more important than lack of a no.

We're applying the lens of the 21st century redux to Scarlett and Rhett's actions -- Mitchell write Scarlett and being pretty completely a product OMG could it be more patriarchal and stifling society. How can she say yes? Scarlett's whole personality and character is that of a woman who has only been taught the word no, and there is no word for yes.

I wish I could agree, but I can't.

Steph, do you think that Scarlett and her contemporaries had the agency to say an explicit yes?