Rhett was probably too rough with her, being drunk and angry, but I don't think the intent was rape.

Isn't that kind of the definition of date rape? The fact that we-the-reader know she's secretly enjoying it just makes it rape fantasy. It doesn't mean she has the ability to stop him.

[And in the interests of full disclosure, I loved that book with the burning passion of a thousand suns when I was in 5th & 6th grade. My best friend and I went as Scarlett and Melanie for Halloween and instead of trick-or-treat said we were collecting donations for The Cause. It wasn't until many many years later that I reread it and went "Oh. Er. Hmm."]

Betsy once talked about the whole "rape fantasy" aspect of much romance. Which is not about wanting (or condoning rape) but wanting somebody to want you so much that they'll break every rule. That their desire for you was complete. Well, she explained it better (as you'd expect) but that was the gist.

Well, *if* Scarlett had rape fantasies (which I don't think the text supports), it only counts as a *fantasy* if Rhett (1) knew she had such fantasies and (2) agreed to play them out with her. And it's pretty clear that Rhett was not trying to help Scarlett fulfill a fantasy.

I still hate GWTW because of that scene. I've never read the book.

it only counts as a *fantasy* if Rhett (1) knew she had such fantasies and (2) agreed to play them out with her.

In real life, sure. In the context of the narrative, the scene is from Scarlett's POV and the reader is meant to be turned on by it.

I was obsessed by it when I was thirteen or so. Leia/Han is totally cribbed from it, too. Well, maybe more so if Leia had an idealized crush on Luke first, but that would be human interaction and George Lucas doesn't write that. I too sort of thought of it as a sex game, but I don't know how I would get that thought as my mother's sex talk was more like "Better Know A Uterus" than talking about the emotions of it all...cable, probably, or some women's mag of my stepmother's.

it only counts as a *fantasy* if Rhett (1) knew she had such fantasies and (2) agreed to play them out with her.

In real life, sure.

Within the story, too. What I mean is that it might be made all pretty by George Cukor, but it's still not Scarlett and Rhett playing out a rape fantasy.

In the context of the narrative, the scene is from Scarlett's POV and the reader is meant to be turned on by it.

Which still doesn't make it any less rapetastic.

Which still doesn't make it any less rapetastic.

I'm not arguing otherwise. Rape fantasy IN FICTION = "would be rape in real life but written as a hot sex scene," no? It's not the same as rape roleplay.

Disclaimer - from here out I am speaking of the text, not the film. The film bungled the scene and that scene totally comes off as different from the text.

I went back and read the text that fell in between what Hil posted and what came after. And this:

Isn't that kind of the definition of date rape? The fact that we-the-reader know she's secretly enjoying it just makes it rape fantasy. It doesn't mean she has the ability to stop him.

But it changes when, at one point, Rhett starts kissing her and she doesn't *want* to stop him, she wants to feel consumed and bullied and loved by him. This is a woman who shot a guy and did all within her power to make sure that not only did she survive, but she did it well and better than those around her. I see Scarlett as insipid and conivving, sure, but also strong and capable of taking care of herself and those she loves. In the text, at no point does she say "No" during the scene, nor does try to fight him off other than in the beginning before he starts kissing her and she starts kissing him back.

And I don't think it's necessarily rape fantasy, either. That would, like Steph said, require some consent and role playing and such. I think it's just angry sex.

Like Amy said, I'm reading this through the eyes of my own experiences and quite frankly, angry sex is some of the best sex I've ever had.

Rape fantasy IN FICTION = "would be rape in real life but written as a hot sex scene," no?

Well, no. A rape in fiction is still a rape in fiction, no matter how the author/director tried to pretty it up. A rape fantasy in fiction would be the characters agreeing to act out the fantasy. Within the narrative.

If someone reads a rape scene and finds it all hot, perhaps that's fueling the *reader's* rape fantasies, but the scene itself -- the characters' actions and reactions -- is not a rape fantasy for them.