Those were awesome, Corwood.

BTW, Hec, thanks for recommending the "Out of the Past" podcasts awhile back. I need to really amp up the section on noir in my book and they have been quite interesting. I wish they would dissect the films more though.

You're welcome! Kind of depends on the film. Some of them do generate a real close analysis. Though I tend to hew to the theory that Noir was a cycle rather than a genre, and they definitely see it as a genre.

Kind of depends on the film. Some of them do generate a real close analysis. Though I tend to hew to the theory that Noir was a cycle rather than a genre, and they definitely see it as a genre.

Well, I'm on board with noir as a genre, but it definitely was also of a certain time and I wish they would acknowledge that more.

I'm only up to Laura, because, of course, I had to start at the beginning, rewatching each one as I go. Next up are The Killers, Rififi, and The Big Sleep, so that's promising.

I'm only up to Laura

I always consider LAURA an odd fit with the rest of noir. Probably because there was more of an unwittingly fatal femme than a conscious femme fatale, and the dialogue favored snarky social ladder bitchiness over hard boiled tough-guyisms.

Well, I'm on board with noir as a genre,

Really? I don't know how you counter the argument that a genre work is made to genre conventions. Since Noir wasn't itself a genre at the time the films were being made, I can't see how a bunch of melodramas and policiers can be lumped together generically. On more of a gut level, though, I just don't feel like movies made outside of the noir era are really noir at all. Movies that consciously ape stylistic elements of noir always look like pastiche. I don't feel that way about later day Westerns.

On more of a gut level, though, I just don't feel like movies made outside of the noir era are really noir at all.

Are there really very many "noir" films outside of the noir era that were shot in high-contrast B&W?

The Big Sleep, so that's promising.

Oh! Watch closely, and you can tell us who killed the chauffeur.

Are there really very many "noir" films outside of the noir era that were shot in high-contrast B&W?

And, if so, were the filmakers doing so not already pastiche artists (I'm thinking of the Coen Brothers and THE MAN WHO WASN'T THERE)?

Oh! Watch closely, and you can tell us who killed the chauffeur.

That's just MEAN!

Are there really very many "noir" films outside of the noir era that were shot in high-contrast B&W?

I have seen some color films shot outside the noir cycle that did feel genuinely noir though also a bit Not!Noir. The classic example, I think, would be Boorman's Point Blank with Lee Marvin. It's kind of a meditation on Noir. Almost like Noir as a Noh Drama / Revenge Play. Very stylized and abstracted. Slightly unreal.

So I don't think it's the B&W. I think its the particular mix of cultural forces that produced Noir. They just aren't present any more.

That post-war era with all the soldiers returning back from seeing horrific action in the war. That's an audience that had its innocence burned off hard and could handle the cynicism. The German ex-pats that worked in the film industry then and brought in so much expressionism and psychological nuance to the productions. The economic structure of Hollywood that produced so many B-movies. All those elements disappear.

I don't know how you counter the argument that a genre work is made to genre conventions. Since Noir wasn't itself a genre at the time the films were being made, I can't see how a bunch of melodramas and policiers can be lumped together generically.

Well, I think the French critics that named it certainly looked at it in that way. I would tend to say that it has evolved into a genre, that is, I think that today one can say a film is noir and the audience would have certain aesthetic and narrative expectations of that film.

I always consider LAURA an odd fit with the rest of noir.

Well, they have an unusual mix of movies ( The Third Man, It's a Wonderful Life, etc. ), and discuss how "noir" this or that film is.