Is that really a plus? Deliberately boring your audience seems more obnoxious than doing it accidentally.

I didn't find a moment of Deadwood or The Wire boring. Boring and slow are different.

Also HBO shows REALLY use season-long arcs, which means earlier episodes have less wrap-up than most viewers of hour-long dramas are used to. It's a different rhythm which takes a while to get used to. It pays off as the season progresses, though, when story strands interweave and influence each other and all build together to a set of climaxes which are much more powerful for having so much back story.

Also HBO shows REALLY use season-long arcs, which means earlier episodes have less wrap-up than most viewers of hour-long dramas are used to. It's a different rhthm which takes a while to get used to. It pays off as the season progresses, though, when story strands interweave and influence each other and all build together to a set of ckimaxes which are much more powerful for having so much back story.

Yep. This is what I loved about Oz. I'd never seen anything like it before.

The entire cast of Carnivale deserved better, really.

Corwood, I didn't think you felt it was boring (and actually I didn't either), but your post read to me like, "this is something people may find fault with, but it's intentional." And if you don't like slow, it is the same as boring. Did I misunderstand what you were responding to? It sounded like you were warning/advising people who hadn't watched it.

Not boring, just a slow build. Really. Of course, much as I try not to take it this personally, hearing "The Wire" and " boring" together... it's like "God, your date's ugly." But there was a deliberate choice not to wrap up anything in an hour, or anything like that, which can look like nothing happens, and I admit that, and I squirmed when DS compared it to Moby Dick, too. Cause I am intimidated by that one, and I *like* cop shows. In an unwholesome way. But it's also really touching and, yeah, even hilarious. And I have called POTUS Shrub Boogie for two years because of it. "So, let me get this straight. You knew he was gonna steal from you and you let him play anyway?"
"Got to. This America."

I feel like the HBO shows I've seen always have a certain self-indulgent quality, to a greater or lesser degree.

I agree, and I'd apply that even to the ones I like (Sopranos, Rome). There's a definite sense of "Oooh, I'm on HBO, check out my mad critical-acclaim skillz."

And I also agree that, for whatever reason, HBO shows tend to have less than thrilling first eps. Had I not had fifteen bajillion people tell me that the second hour of Rome was exponentially better than the first, I'd never have watched it at all. With Sopranos, it took me nearly half a season (of DVDs, so I wasn't paying for the channel) to accept that, yeah, the show was actually (almost) as good as it thought it was.

[eta that I don't feel that way about Curb Your Enthusiasm, but that may just be because it's hard to exude smug pretention when your show is about Larry David being cranky.]

Corwood, I didn't think you felt it was boring (and actually I didn't either), but your post read to me like, "this is something people may find fault with, but it's intentional." And if you don't like slow, it is the same as boring. Did I misunderstand what you were responding to? It sounded like you were warning/advising people who hadn't watched it.

Yeah, it was a little bit warning to new viewers and a little bit trying to convince you to stick with it (because I'm still always surprised when people I respect don't love the things I love, for some reason). I mean, I do think their rhythms are deliberate, and I agree that the first few episodes of each show weren't action-packed, but each introduced characters and elements that became explosive before the end of the season. I don't think that's obnoxious; I think it's organic to the form of storytelling adopted by each of those series.

Of course, the trouble with really long arcs is that, if something is resolved or dropped out in the middle of the arc, you might just give up on the whole show. That's what happened to me with The Wire, in the middle of season 2, when they killed of D'Angelo Barksdale. He was one of the few characters I actively cared about at that point, and without him, it wasn't really worth the intellectual effort of watching the rest of the season.

(I always did like Homicide better, because it had to do more with less.)

D'angelo was very special, Nutty. Mos def. If there was any character I would have wanted a Dickens ending for, where he was related to the President of some African nation? It would definitely be D'Angelo. Or possibly poor little Wallace.

This worked perfectly, because my laundry should be dry now. I win!

Yeah, it was a little bit warning to new viewers and a little bit trying to convince you to stick with it (because I'm still always surprised when people I respect don't love the things I love, for some reason)

Heh. No, I do understand the, "But how can you not like it, when it's so CLEARLY fantastic?!" reaction. The last episode of Deadwood I watched was "Here Was A Man," and it was great. I just... didn't want to keep watching. Whatever that magic is that makes you like a show and want more wasn't there for me. If I could point to something in particular I didn't like, it'd be easier. But that's why a "later you'll see..." pitch doesn't work for me. Unless it's: later you'll see that it becomes a totally different show. Where they're all actually in Westworld. And Swearingen turns out to be Yul Brenner. Because that would be awesome.

...But I digress.

The Wire, I'll probably try again at some point. In retrospect I think that I was profoundly not in the mood for it when I attempted to watch it.