It's been a fascinating topic of discussion.

Sounds like it. I will say, too, that being Southern, white, and having had a fairly privileged, somewhat urban upbringing, my perspective is certainly skewed. When I think about it, I can't recall any of my friends who were black ever swimming in pools, but that may have been because pool swimming was less common than open-water swimming by the time I was in high school. I know at the local pool, most of the people in the pool are usually people of color, but the lap swimmers are almost exclusively white.

By the time I got to high school in London, I was the best swimmer there, in a mostly white school. At my high school in Jamaica, predominantly black, I was average. I think the best swimmers in my year tended to not be black, but I doubt it was as marked as it would be here--being able to swim and being competitive about swimming are different enough.

I would posit that this may be a result of geography, not race. Not a lot of beaches in England, but the beach (and therefore swimming) is an integral part of life in jamaica, right? this is of course completely an assumption on my part.

the lap swimmers are almost exclusively white.

This is what I notice, even at Caltech. Also, interestingly, most of the adults in lessons are asian.

Well AD's claims were physiological. He said it was a bone density thing.

And yet we can jump...yeah, I got nothing. I don't see why bone density would stop someone from having swimming lessons or developing basic competency. It totally has to be socialised at that point.

And does the density really translate to that much difference in the water?

Random: Eric Bana is on my tv talking about Munich (that's the movie right?) and it's increasing my Bana love.

And does the density really translate to that much difference in the water?

Bone density I'd say no. Muscle density? I'd say yes.

oh, also -- my mother never learned to swim (and her mother didn't know how to swim), my mother is actually afraid of the water and hates to have it on her face (to this day, my parents have one of those removeable shower heads so that she doesn't have to put her face in it) However, my father grew up in Florida and insisted that my bro and I learn how to swim (although, my grandmother didn't know how to swim, so there may also be cultural/hair issues as well)

Bone density I'd say no. Muscle density? I'd say yes.'

there is some truth to this. My family doesn't float, except in the Dead Sea. If I try to float on my back, I will eventually sink.

Well the more fat you have (in my case it's quite a bit) the better you float. High muscle/low fat animals have a harder time floating.

the beach (and therefore swimming) is an integral part of life in jamaica, right?

Nope. My mother still can't swim worth a damn. My father, who grew up even further from the ocean than my mother swims like a fish. I learnt to swim and did most of my swimming in the pool.

I think for a lot of Jamaicans, the beach is just there, and the ocean is even more just there. It's not that much of a destination if you fall between the classes of people with a bunch of leisure time and those who work on it.

And a fair amount of Jamaicans don't grow up or live that near to swimmable ocean.

Between you and me, Vortex, you know it's because black women hate to get their hair wet.