Are you talking Platonic rules, or house rules, Cashmere? It seems that card-counting is against house rules, which is why they try and stop you from doing it.

Betting is a two-way contract according to the state of Nevada.

That's pretty much been the core of my entire argument. Wanting one side of the contract honoured without honouring the other is what I'm calling unethical.

That's pretty much been the core of my entire argument. Wanting one side of the contract honoured without honouring the other is what I'm calling unethical.

It's unethical for the card counters? They still want the two-way contract. They want to risk their own money to try to win the casino's money. The casino wants their money, too. But only on house terms--not the card counter's.

It seems that card-counting is against house rules, which is why they try and stop you from doing it.

The casinos rules are basically set up to keep the house edge as high as possible. That, in and of itself could be considered unethical. They skew the odds in their favor and prevent anyone else from doing the same.

Personally, even if I could count cards, I wouldn't--because the risk of getting thrown out is not worth the little bit of edge it would give me. I choose to play the odds I'm given by the house. If I don't like the odds, I don't have to play.

But I don't necessarily consider it unethical for someone who wants to take that risk because gambling is all about risks.

The casinos rules are basically set up to keep the house edge as high as possible.

I'm not concerned with motivation. Just that it is against the rules, and as such, is cheating. It's their rules, and it's their contract. The card-counter wants to gamble on their own terms, the casino wants to gamble on theirs. However, the power disparity is such that the house gets to set the rules, not the gambler. That's all I'm saying.

So if you go in and say the house has to live up to their end of the contract and give you money, but you don't have to live up to yours (not card count, not look at other people's cards, whatever)--that's what I'm saying is unethical. Either accept their terms, or reject them all. Not pick and choose to your financial advantage.

The gambler doesn't want the two-way contract. They want a different one. They're just not in a position to draft it.

That's a good argument, ita. And one I'm sure the casinos espouse. They don't have a lot of people standing up in their defense because they're the ones with all the money and the power to set the rules.

I just don't consider it unethical for an individual to try to increase their own odds of winning--as long as they're not using anything more than their brains and skill.

I can't vouch for every casino, but I really do not think card counting is "technically" against the rules. As long as you're not using a mechanical device, you're not breaking any rules. You're simply playing by your own strategy. Which is what EVERY blackjack player does. Legally, it's ok. But the casinos still don't like it and don't legally have to let you do it on their property. If they suspect you're doing it, they can throw you out.

The people I've seen get thrown out were actually cheating--bending card corners, palming chips, etc. I think it would be hard to actually prove someone is counting cards in their head. But again, the casinos don't have to prove anything, they can throw you out if they don't like the way you look.

It's a VERY gray ethical area. And individual views on the situational ethics of card counting are going to vary. A lot.

Hrm. I have a friend who has been a professional (semi-professional? who makes that distinction?) card counter for at least 10 years, and is banned from most casinos both in Nevada and Atlantic City. His file gets circulated around, but he can still usually hit new casinos before they figure out who he is. Works with a cartel, plays with their bankroll, has associates who cash chunks of chips to reduce suspicion.

Hey lori, your friend doesn't happen to be a folk singer too, does he?

I have a friend whose story you just told.

I feel like a tool of the man. But just like I think it's fine to have dress codes, I think it's fine to say "Here are the rules of my game? Wanna play? Don't break them."

Understand, I'm not talking about civil rights or anything I think that important. Maybe that's the thing for me. It's "just" gambling.

Beej, no, he's an engineer. I would hate to hear him sing.

I think being a professional gambler would be harder than grinding it out at a job I hated every day. Too much stress.

ita's the mouthpiece for the Man!!!

I understand your point of view, ita. It's a very sound and rational argument. It's just something that doesn't ping my ethics meter.

And it is only gambling. People who take it (gambling) more seriously than that scare me.

Ha! My friend can count 5 decks in his head...and figure very long odds...proving an bent toward mathy things...and he's a great singer/songwriter...but I doubt he could engineer anything.

While I understand about the ethical issues between the implicit rules of the house and the breaking of same through card counting...the entire universe of gambling seems to be void of ethical high ground.

No high ground, just the pits. Nothing about it seems 'fair' to me, and yet, if people want to participate, knowing the inherent imbalance, then I don't guess I can argue.

The part that bothers me is all the associated stuff. My friend, a basically good guy, has gotten 'mixed up' (voluntarily, to be sure) in a lot of seamy things unrelated to his savant ability to keep track of a zillion cards in his head. The sort of things that got him chased out of Russia by the mob, detained by Asian police, and landed in a half-way house/jail where his cellmate got shot in the ass one night. Seriously, the actual 'playing' of the games seems inconsequential in the overall world of gambling.