Edited to clarify: I think only people who are religous extremists hold the view that people who don't believe in God are without morals.

These are the people I'm talking about. Also George Bush Senior, because he said that very thing (though I doubt he really believes it), and don't think I don't have the Whitest Voodoo Doll Evar with his name on it.

My brother's first long-term serious girlfriend was a Biblical literalist. Sweet, and kind, and a vegetarian hippie Oregonian whose best friend was a non-churchgoing gay hairdresser. She had pierced her own navel and loved pretty clothes (but thought she was too ugly to wear them) and adored my brother.

And the FAC she belonged to, and all her family, made her afraid to open a book or see a movie because people who made up stories were trying to set themselves up against God as co-creators, and they badgered her for the entire five months she was seeing my brother, and made her feel like shit, and finally she just lost whatever little spark of self and rebellion she'd had, and on Christmas Day she called my brother and broke up with him because she was convinced she'd go to hell if she didn't. It just wrecked him, and I'm still, years later, and even with him happily married to a delightful woman, fairly pissed at her and at her FAC -- and sometimes I worry about her and how much further she's diminished since then. The whole episode just makes my gut curl up.

Most of us, hopefully, live our lives Not Judging (lest we be judged), Loving Our Neighbor as Ourselves, and just trying to be good examples of Christ on Earth. (Not saying I/we do a good job of it, but this, hopefully, is the aim).

Totally. TOTALLY.

But it is not that hard for people who are most interested in only interacting with people who believe what they do to do so. On any "side." I know people who go to a liberal church, work for liberal causes, live in liberal neighborhoods, only have liberal friends. At a church I went to once, they had a residence for single church members, and there was lots of talk about this new member working for a Christian law firm, etc. It's just not that hard to Stick To Your Own Kind.

A petty, practical-joke-playing God is a good thing?

This is something that has always bothered me about Biblical literalism. The God of the old testament is petty, childish, arbitrary, and cruel. I doubt very much if such a God exists. It seems more likely that these characteristics reflect the fears and projections of an early civilization. But if such a God does exist, wouldn't the moral choice of every person be to fight against his power, no matter how hopeless such a fight would be?

I doubt very much if such a God exists

Why? I mean, why doubt such a God? Is he less likely than a more uniformly benevolent one?

It seems more likely that these characteristics reflect the fears and projections of an early civilization.

Or their needs.

I don't know, Nutty. I know at least a few people who believe I'm going to hell and we manage to be civil to one another. I think most people differentiate between being misguided about the Truth and wilfully evil.

Why? I mean, why doubt such a God? Is he less likely than a more uniformly benevolent one?

ita has outed me as an agnostic.

I love Grandma E.

She's fantastic! And she's all excited becaus she has wireless broadband now and can do more on the internet.

Her sister is the mother of the Southern Baptist Ministers (Obnoxious and his brother who is nice) and Grandma E clashes with their beliefs. They are literalists, but Grandma E feels they are too close minded and quick to judge. They also love the Left Behind series which she just doesn't get. The bad writing bugs her more than the shoddy theology I think.

Plus Grandma E is more the type to hang out with the sinners and help the poor and sick because Jesus did that and she wants her life to emulate his.

ita, you're going to hell. But that's your choice, and I'm not going to try and talk you out of it. Want to do lunch?"

I wonder if I should say, "Neither Heaven and Hell exists, so neither of us will be going anywhere", If I run across someone who is worried that I'm a non-believer."

The biggest problem I have with Intelligent Design, is how do you prove it? Merely saying that stuff is too complex isn't enough, it must able to be tested.

Most of us, hopefully, live our lives Not Judging (lest we be judged), Loving Our Neighbor as Ourselves, and just trying to be good examples of Christ on Earth. (Not saying I/we do a good job of it, but this, hopefully, is the aim).

If this was the standard, then we'd all have Ascended already. Sadly, here we are.