Also, "my dad drinks too much" is a much simpler explanation than "my family hunts evil, but I don't want to."

When was the first chapter of Red posted? (I am too lazy to look it up, but suspect a lot of the construction of this particular verse occured when John was still more of a cipher. Oh, the perils of writing in an active fandom.)

Grey canon (journals, specifically) has occasional drinking binges, but the grey canon ends before Sam would know which end was up.

Who was it who said that from fic she'd always had the impression that John was an abusive alcoholic, and that her first time watching Salvation and DMT her imagination put bottles and glasses in the scenes. That when she rewatched, suddenly there wasn't any alcohol around, anywhere, and nobody seemed to be missing it?

I think a lot of writers brought their own parental issues to their vision of John, before he was more than, as Plei says, a cipher. And Sam's "Jack, Jim and Jose" crack in the pilot has, I think, generally been put down to pissiness, and a desire to distance himself and Jessica from his family and their hard-to-explain, and to accept, paranormal activities.

I think a lot of writers brought their own parental issues to their vision of John

Ohhh, no kidding. There's also the longstanding tendency to heroize one person by demonizing another. In order that Dean may be the Amazing Parental Brother of Saintly Martyrdom, John must needs be a complete loss as a parent. Emotional extremism of that sort just isn't likely to be good writing, aside from not making all that much sense in this instance. (Dude was four years old! He couldn't even read that we know of. Whatever care he did provide, he certainly wasn't the one reading the labels of the baby food jars.)

Sam's "Jack, Jim and Jose" crack in the pilot

The problem I always had with that joke, aside from not getting it the first five times I heard it (I seriously thought they were fictional people), is that all the serious drinkers I know are Jack, Jack and Jack drinkers, and do not brook a whole hell of a lot of variety.

Sam also says in Nightmare that they could have ended up like Max if there had been a little more tequila in John's life, which reads to me like John drank some, but kept it under control most of the time, kind of like Dean.

which reads to me like John drank some, but kept it under control most of the time, kind of like Dean

This. John was on the move for twenty-some years, being a single father, and in direct combat with some of the freakiest supernatural shit ever. On a personal vendetta to avenge his wife. Man's gonna hit the bottle every now and again. (Hell, I need a drink and it's only a Tuesday.)

Dude was four years old! He couldn't even read that we know of. Whatever care he did provide, he certainly wasn't the one reading the labels of the baby food jars.

Thank you. This is the reaction I have every time someone brings up the whole "and Dean changed his diapers!" trope. Okay, I'm not a parent, but I'm guessing most kids are out of diapers by the age of -- what, 3? So Dean would have been 7 or 8 by then. Do you really see John handing over diaper-changing duties to a 4, 5, or 6 year old?

Cereal post:

When was the first chapter of Red posted?

Plei, according to what I can see, the first chapter is dated 9/25/06.

Thank you. This is the reaction I have every time someone brings up the whole "and Dean changed his diapers!" trope. Okay, I'm not a parent, but I'm guessing most kids are out of diapers by the age of -- what, 3? So Dean would have been 7 or 8 by then. Do you really see John handing over diaper-changing duties to a 4, 5, or 6 year old?

3 or 4. Probably earlier in the early 80s when diapers were large, saggy things with nasty plastic tabs giving clearer wet/dirty signals to the kidlets. I just have the one toddler, and my brother's only two years younger than me, so I never changed his diapers, but I suspect most 5 or 6 year olds are perfectly capable of helping with diaper changes. I think my cousin's oldest did with both his siblings.

Dean's only a couple months shy of five when the fire happens, so diaper changing's totally within the realm of possibility for Sam's late infant and early toddler years.

By the time Sam's 4 or 5, I can easily see the majority of his daily care being met by his older sibling.

By the time Sam's 4 or 5, I can easily see the majority of his daily care being met by his older sibling.

I think it's canon now, (after appearing in roughly 3 million fanfic stories) that Dean, at least some of the time, was the primary caretaker for Sam. In "All Hell Breaks Loose" part 2 when Dean was talking to the Sam Who Had Fallen Into Pie, I think he was remembering when he was 9 and Dad used to go away on hunts for days at a time, leaving the boys alone. So I have absolutely no problem agreeing that Dean inherited (or had shoved upon him) excessive responsibilities. He's insanely protective and I love him for it. I just question the whole likelihood of changing diapers at the age of 5 issue. As for the age when Sam would no longer need diapers -- I have no idea. As I said, I'm not a parent, so I claim no expertise. From personal experience, I can say that I began kindergarten at the age of 4, so I know I was definitely trained by then. But it's not like I really remember.