I think it's just--well, to use the cake metaphor, it's too bad that you don't like the cake, but it carries the implication that the cake shouldn't be made in the first place, that the cake should only be already-accepted cake.

I don't think it does carry it, though. I think it *can*, but when I grouse, it's because there are good bakers out there baking cakes that I don't eat. There are plenty of good cakes left, and many excellent bakers, but my desire for cake is such that I sometimes look longingly at those I know I wouldn't care for, because the taste doesn't work for me.

There is no value judgement there, just different taste buds.

I think you're missing a verb, honey.

In that case, not my beautiful cake was the verb.

That's not how 95% of the Wincest I read plays out at all.

And the funny part is that when I surf my friendlist after a new episode, it feels like 95% of them are announcing that Sam and Dean are so totally doing it. So I feel out of step with the fandom, and not a cool kid, and I'm just grumbling and kicking my feet here when what I should be doing is creating a new reading filter.

I'm not trying to make a moral judgment or put anyone in a box, or deny anyone their beautiful cake.

Cake is never bad. That's why it's a good metaphor.

Well, the thing I think is cool about cake is that there are so many different varieties and I like variety. I've never had a OTC, so I don't feel limited or like I'm missing anything. What makes more of a difference to me is the execution in the baking of the cake and the presentation.

t /Buffy speak

At least it ain't cookies.

As predominantly a gen writer, I'm pretty much used to being Not a Cool Kid in fandom. ::shrugs::

This is just limiting my reading more than affecting my writing.

I'm still on a quest for the SPN comm that allows everything else but wincest. There are gen comms, and comms that are restricted in other focussed ways; and comms that are restricted along ethical lines too strict for me (e.g., disallowing Teh Gay as well). It's tiring, trolling ten comms rather than one; but I've decided I can't bear to be on a comm that does allow wincest, so the extra work is required for me, at this point. There doesn't seem to be that one perfect comm that is meant for fic that can be adult, without breaking a taboo that's important to me.

I'm over the whole "all fandom must follow my desires" thing, but, I feel that I am a unique flower marketing niche that has not yet been broken out and exploited in the manner thata marketing niche deserves. Mostly, I am hoping to guilt trip somebody else into making a comm because I wouldn't know how to admin one even if I did have the ambition to start it.

I gave up, Nutty. I read the newsletter and I post my stories to SPN_Gen, and I cannot bear the effort of finding yet another community to deal with.

Makes me miss the old days of XFC...

I'm not trying to make a moral judgment

You know. To be completely frank, I think I do, a little bit. I mean, it's fanfic after all and we're all here for our enjoyment, but I think there is a line there somewhere. The line is in slightly different places for different people but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, you know? And Wincest that doesn't problematize the incest aspect of the relationship crosses mine, and the widespread fannish acceptance of it as just a minor obstruction in the path of OTP does go a way toward lowering the threshold, which I find unsettling.

Like chan, for example (and I'm not talking about an adult/sexually mature 17 year-old, but adult/12-15 year-old.) I'm not saying the subject matter is completely taboo, but there is something to be said about the way it's portrayed. So, I can say Lolita is a great work of literature, and find Adrian Lyne's adaptation incredibly problematic in the way it removed the most of the irony from the book and portrayed Humbert/Lolita as some tragic epic romance with soft-focus camera work and swelling violin music. Happy-fun incest is feels to me sort of like the latter.

I really like "Wincest is my cilantro" as an explanation, and plan to invoke it for that sort of discussion in the future.

(I find wingfic far less Out of Character than incest for SPNfic.)

And Wincest that doesn't problematize the incest aspect of the relationship crosses mine,

But not all Wincest doesn't do this. ETA: augh, double negative. Not all wincest doesn't problematize the brother relationship. I would go as far to say the majority of it does problematize it, or address it. I can could on one hand happy-fun incest stories I've even encountered so far in the fandom. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, and I don't particularly have any desire to look in the first place. Not all Wincest, or incest fic, is happy fun, they're doing this because they're both hot fic. Most of it is exploring the relationship while still being aware and dealing with the fact that they are brothers. And I even if it wasn't, I still don't think there's any kind of moral obligation fic writers have to deal with incest that way. I don't agree with it, but I think it's a valid form of expression. Who am I to say that what so and so writes is morally suspect?

if you say that it's a *personal* moral line, that's different. But saying that there is some cultural-societal moral line is not something I can support.

I get the grousing, but it's like saying (minus the incest factor) why isn't x writer writing all the Taylor/Ryan (The OC) I want to read? Why isn't the fandom giving me all that T/R I really want? It's an ineffable question, because fandom does what fandom does, and you either find the stuff you want to read or you find something else. It's pointless to grouse about something that has no controls. Which, again, I'm not trying to police anyone or anyone's feelings, but I don't really understand.