But I don't think I could be that much of a raw nerve. I don't think I could let anyone I don't know (or teams of clever and perceptive people I don't know) get that deep a line directly into my heart.

I vividly remember how it felt to get that emotionally invested in a character or a work of fiction, and feeling just tormented by the loss or deaths of characters I loved. ROTK did it; Serenity did it; and, to a somewhat lesser extent, so did the end of the second season of Doctor Who. It wasn't true grief, but I have certainly felt depths of emotion for fictional characters that went beyond what is probably a normal reaction. It's been a while, though, and I'm not sure whether to attribute that to mere growing up, or falling in love or experiencing grief in the real world, or what. And I don't miss it -- there were times when it weirded *me* out to be so overinvested in my fictional worlds, and I'm generally happier now putting that energy toward relationships with real people. But maybe those reactions served a purpose at the time?

All that to say, I can absolutely see where that person is coming from.

And I generally think threats of violence towards creators, however metaphorical, are creepy as all fuck.

100% agreed.

I don't know how to properly articulate how this (and other) expressions of reactions to fiction can disturb me. I think there's some sort of an air that this shouldn't happen, that fiction isn't for this, that the writer did something wrong by evoking a deep grief, that this is *bad*. The reaction that you've been betrayed by the creator, that they've done something wrong...that's the part that gets me the most.

I mean, fuck, I watch Supernatural on purpose, you know? But I think it's Eric and Sera's job, just as it was Joss's to get me happy and sad and conflicted and all of those things. However, there are boundaries around it, and it's always through the lens that they're fictional, even as I cried my way through whatever book or movie. If I'm going to get mad at anyone, it's at me. Joss is not God, and he has no responsibility to care gently for his creations. I know that. It's part of why I'm there.

Well, for Mark it's definitely going to be Joyce. Although I am wondering how he's going to react to Tara, since he's really taken to Oz.

But something about the way enigmaticscully talks about Jenny makes me think she(?) is going to REALLY get invested in Tara, and then......

I think there's some sort of an air that this shouldn't happen, that fiction isn't for this, that the writer did something wrong by evoking a deep grief, that this is *bad*. The reaction that you've been betrayed by the creator, that they've done something wrong...that's the part that gets me the most.

Ah, I see what you're saying. And I agree -- the creators of fiction don't have any responsibility to treat their characters gently, and we, the consumers, have to expect that we might get our hearts broken. That said, I'm guessing most people understand that, hyperbolic expressions of emotion notwithstanding. I'd be surprised if the person you quoted *actually* felt personally betrayed by Joss, but I think it's pretty common -- especially in a place like Mark Watches -- to use expressions like that in order to get those feelings across. (I hope, anyway, that it's mainly hyperbole...)

The reaction that you've been betrayed by the creator, that they've done something wrong...that's the part that gets me the most.

I don't think I've ever felt *betrayed* by the choices a creator of fiction has made (that seems like a very extreme reaction), but I think I've had reactions of "No! What they did was wrong!" And maybe there's a subtle gradation between "I don't like what they did," and "What they did was wrong," and maybe I actually fell more on the "I don't like what they did" side of the fence. But I would have said at the time, for instance, that killing off Superboy in whatever-the-hell Crisis (Infinite?) was wrong, and it affected me like a gut punch.

In retrospect, it's more that I just vehemently disliked it, and it wasn't objectively "wrong," per se. But it felt "wrong" at the time.

the creators of fiction don't have any responsibility to treat their characters gently, and we, the consumers, have to expect that we might get our hearts broken. That said, I'm guessing most people understand that, hyperbolic expressions of emotion notwithstanding.

And this is the other side of it. I get it -- other people's fictional toys are are going to do stuff/have stuff happen to them that I am not going to like. And I understand that.

I have read enough people who say they'd like to get Sera Gamble fired that I don't have any confidence that enough people make that distinction.

The degree of personal anger at Joss's decision to kill Wash, or RTD's to kill Ianto--I love those two guys, and may even think they were the wrong decisions in that the stories told after their deaths will be poorer for their absences, but I don't think either writer was wrong to do what he did, nor that there was any sort of relationship or understanding in place that could be betrayed.

It's also possible that hyperbole is a method of communication that I just don't get, but to even *go there* with most of the suggestions about communicating their displeasure in ways that have any real-world impact in excess of a polite conversation? Leaves me perplexed.

That's seriously what fanfiction is for--making the characters do what you want. I think it's a privilege to have other people manipulate the characters, and the rewards I reap from it is balanced with the constant awareness that it could go a way I find distasteful any moment. It's a continual understanding. That tension enriches everything. It's like gambling for your paycheque instead of knowing exactly how much you get every month.

The highs feel higher, but it's not like I have to make rent, you know?

Now, see, I was angry about Tara's death, angry enough to post to TWoP about it. But I never felt like it was.... inappropriate for Joss to have written it, like there was a personal betrayal.

But I wasn't a gay person living in a time when Tara was one of the few positive depictions of a lesbian on a nationally syndicated program.

I was, and while I was horrified by her death it was horror within the context of the narrative, not outrage that the writer would go there.

It's really interesting to see the reactions of other people watching for the first time, who also appear to be pretty unspoiled. Because right now, they know that Angel exists, but they have no idea how that's supposed to work, with Angelus being totally and utterly awful right now.

I don't think I've ever felt *betrayed* by the choices a creator of fiction has made (that seems like a very extreme reaction), but I think I've had reactions of "No! What they did was wrong!"

I did kind of feel that way about Larry McMurtry. I was invested in a character in Lonesome Dove and then in the sequel he went and killed the character off-screen! And it was an important character. But he wanted to clear the decks so he took one of the central dynamics of the first book and threw it away.

Actually, that's exactly how I felt about killing off Newt off-screen in Alien3. Same thing. It wasn't driven by narrative but a kind of expediency that disregarded the previous emotional investment that they'd asked for.

Holy shit. Those characters have the same name.