I think Spike's overall arc would have worked better if after he had gotten the soul, he made a choice to go back to being evil.

what would have kept Buffy in Sunnydale?

Crushing grief? A Hellmouth to keep an eye on? High real-estate prices?

I agree with the die before rape bit, but since he didn't I'm actually glad he was on Angel because I love Season 5 and it's my understanding there would not have been S5 without Spike. You can't take the wee little puppet man or Illyria away from me!

I have to look at S5 as a separate entity from the rest of the series. I like to love a lot of individual episodes and the Connor B Arc, but the A Arc made no sense, it pings even harder than AtS usual did on race and gender issues, and a lot of the character development seemed utterly inorganic to me for anyone not named Angel or Spike.

Which just isn't an excuse or a good reason for doing things.

I think it's a great reason, maybe the best. Great character, great actor, enhances the show. Let's bend the show that way.

However, you are very right that Spike should've died.

So, I think they flinched on Giles and Spike. I think the Oz death was too early for a dark Willow arc. Riley would've been a perfect sacrificial lamb but they already killed off Joyce, so that was a no go.

I do concur with the Overall Pattern standard, though. I mean, that's even what the courts use to determine discrimination.

"You say that you don't discriminate against women, but you've had women in management positions for 20 years but not once has a woman been the right choice for a top executive position?"

I think it's a great reason, maybe the best. Great character, great actor, enhances the show. Let's bend the show that way.

I think it's a great reason to EXPAND a character from one or two off to recurring or regular while that character still enhances, but that you can have to know when it's detracting from, rather than enhancing, the story or show. Which I don't think they did.

but that you can have to know when it's detracting from, rather than enhancing, the story or show. Which I don't think they did.

I've been in this corner since Season 4.

Would we rather have (and I am really curious) more dead good males, or more alive good females?

Both? Or more death all around? I do think that Spike and Giles were characters whose deaths would have made narrative sense and who weren't used consistently well when creator sentiment decided to spare them.

I think I'm going to have to go with more death for everyone, and Joss being more willing to strangle his darlings.

Also, I'm so glad Plei showed up. I've been feeling like a total poser in this conversation.

Which just isn't an excuse or a good reason for doing things.

I think it's a great reason, maybe the best. Great character, great actor, enhances the show. Let's bend the show that way.

Yeah, I have to agree with Hec here. Hell, Spike was supposed to die in Season Two, right? And Mr. Trick was supposed to be the Big Bad for Season Three, but instead they shifted to the Mayor, who was the better character.

I think it's a great reason to EXPAND a character from one or two off to recurring or regular while that character still enhances, but that you can have to know when it's detracting from, rather than enhancing, the story or show. Which I don't think they did.

Ah, okay. That's a good distinction.

And Mr. Trick was supposed to be the Big Bad for Season Three, but instead they shifted to the Mayor, who was the better character.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- Mr. Trick was wasted. He was a great character, had a fresh outlook on evil, and they wasted him when they switched to the mayor. I loved the mayor, don't get me wrong. They should have had Trick leave town instead of getting killed. He seems like the kind of villain that would say "this isn't working, I'm out"

I think it's a great reason, maybe the best. Great character, great actor, enhances the show. Let's bend the show that way.

Yabbut.

Your whole list up there (which was mostly information I didn't know) was all about guys, pretty much. Here's a list of reasons not to kill Xander, Giles, Spike, Oz, and Riley. And then you compare that to Jenny Calendar, Tara, Joyce, Anya.

I just agree that it's a trend worth looking at, whatever the ultimate conclusion.