I don't know if I'd put it that way. The nature of the obsession is the power you imbue to the source of your fascination. But there is a transference so the object of attention is supercharged with your particular fucked-upedness. So I wouldn't say it's "never about the object." The object becomes it's own little power center medallion loaded magical interest.

Not really. That is how the obsessed person sees the object, but it is not the object's fault. The object hasn't (necessarily) changed. Obsession takes place within the obsessor. Of course there is a focus or object of obsession, but the object didn't cause the obsession, and in the end, obsession is completely selfish on the part of the obsessor. If it's not completely selfish, then there's at least some love in the mix.

Wait, I may be able to save myself from the horrors of concordance. Because I did (I think) get what you were saying re Doyle's wanting Angel to take a more personal interest in the, uh... customers? I just don't think that's what actually happened. Angel was humanized by getting involved in the lives of his co-workers, not the people he was ostensibly helping. I think he took on cases because helping the helpless was an efficient way of locating brewing evil. If his primary goal was helping people, they'd have all gone to work for Anne.

Heh. I won't go back and read what I wrote because why would I do that to myself, and I feel like such a disappointment, because I don't take much (if any issue) with what you've just said. All I was trying to do originally was differentiate between hero and champion.

Buffy was chosen--called and responded to the call--to fight the fight. Angel fights because something about each battle he enters engages him some how. I don't mean to portray him as having a deep and/or lasting concern or sympathy for all his clients. But for the most part, someone comes to him for help, and he helps, or he's aware of someone in need of help, and so he helps. I agree that he gets a charge out of saving the day.

And rereading that, I have no idea if I'm making any sense at all, and/or continuing to misunderstand you. But that's why I like debates. Eventually I'll be forced into coherence. Probably.

Let's talk Wesley, then.

(I'm sorry, you're probably as tired of that as Sars is of SARS jokes.)

The only way you could do that is by skipping season 4.

You know, first I wrote "concord," and saw the setup, and so then I started to change it to "harmony," but...

Cindy -- But I don't understand the distinction you're making. And I'm curious about it. So if you agree with me, I'm even more confused. Or was that your plan all along? Hmm.

Were my opinions about Wesley incoherent? I tried to be clear. I waffled too much, right? Should have just said what I really thought for once. Damn. (Hee. For the record: no, it's fine, I got very little of that. You are correct about Sars, though.)

You know, first I wrote "concord," and saw the setup, and so then I started to change it to "harmony," but...

...but that would set up a whole 'nother set of jokes.

Cindy -- But I don't understand the distinction you're making. And I'm curious about it. So if you agree with me, I'm even more confused. Or was that your plan all along? Hmm.

If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.

I don't know. I think the line mostly exists in my head. I'll try again. Buffy was drawn to the fight. She went looking for it. She patrolled to find trouble.

Week to week (mostly), Angel got involved, because someone said, "Angel Investigations please help us," and/or the Powers that Be sent him an engraved invitation through Doyle or Cordy's headaches; or he or one of his own was threatened. Before that, he needed Buffy to bring him to the fight.

I would probably do better to rewatch some Angel, so I could bring some examples to the table. All I can think of now is City of, Eternity, Judgement, Untouched, and the like. He then (often literally) fought as someone's champion, fought for someone who couldn't help himself.

Joss is TV Guide's Guest Columnist of the week, and he's extra flamey Jossy. He fawns all over...well...himself, takes a playful poke at all the CSIs, name-checks Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick, continues his obsession with lint, shamelessly plugs Serenity, and loves all over Veronica Mars. Again. It's a delightful read if you love Joss. No spoilers: [link]

Saw The Complete Buffy and The Complete Angel at Costco today for $150 and $125, respectively. I had to remind myself that food and shelter still trump Joss. (But not clothing.) Also, the Serenity cover is truly pathetic.

Saw The Complete Buffy and The Complete Angel at Costco today for $150 and $125,

I saw that too, but the Complete Buffy set I saw was specially packaged, with extra bonus material not found in the regular sets. The Complete Angel I saw was just the five Angel season sets packed together in another, bigger box.

Scott and I have on some oldies radio station. He's in the living room, dismantling the Christmas tree. I'm in the den, having a glass of wine, because I snacked while I was cooking dinner, and gave myself a belly ache...

...but anyhow, it's a 70s weekend, or summat, on Oldies 103.3. They'd just played Seasons in the Sun and You're no good, then the very first notes of Mandy played, and I thought, "I'm with Angel. It's kinda of pretty."

Scott's voice came from the other room, "I kind of think it's pretty."

"And so it is, ya great big sap."

Watching a Britromcom with Dougray Scott (and Jennifer Love Hewitt, don't hate me). Random courtroom scene...fellow stating an alibi. "I was home by 10. You see, Buffy was on and I never miss it."

Deeply in the cultural fabric.

Whedonesque tells me that not only is Owen from NKABOTFD in Love Monkey but so is Riley's wife Sam. (Didn't recognize her at all.)