So, say that somebody was asked to participate in some sort of debating [Edit: in a local small science-fiction convention] regarding "Angel in the 5th season: a calculated hero or a desperate man who lost his way?".

And say that this somebody can't find the time to threadsuck all of the S5 threads and comb them for opinions, but still wonders what the clever Buffistas may be thinking, what would your opinion on the subject be, and why.

Do you think anybody would still have the energy to re-hash these subjects? And what would you have to say about it?

Thanks!

Others are far wiser than me on such topics Nilly, but I'm going to go with "calculated hero, aware of the futility of his otherwise noble, if insensitive actions."

Angels arc in season 5 pinged me as very Pattonesque. Certainly well meaning but self indulgent and sometimes mark-missing.

I think he was purposeful. His big mistake, IMO, was to forget the agency of the other characters, and it was when that went badly (c.f. Wesley in Origin) that he really seemed to start flailing, in a broody way.

I have trouble using the word "calculated" to describe Angel. "Desperate" doesn't work for me too well, either. Maybe I don't understand the question, or maybe I'm just too fussy about words.

A lot of S5 is certainly about Angel feeling like he's lost his identity and his purpose. As far as I'm concerned, that's the main arc for the season, even if it's not handled so well. At the end I guess he's calculated, in that he actually has a goal again. So... either neither one is right, or both are, depending. (I'm helpful!)

For me it hinges on Angel's motivation for accepting the deal -- it seems he did it for Connor, and then tried to make it work out. Calculated would have had him planning (coldly) how to save the world from W&H up front, but I think he took the deal out of desperation, and tried to make the best of it.

The plan, good or no, came second.

I wouldn't describe Angel in S5 as "calculated," although "calculating," sure. {aside, Angelus is also calculating and that, IMO, is what makes him more scary than almost any other vampire}. And not exactly desperate, although desperation--as ita says--got him into the S5 situation. It really is a return to whatever season it was when Angel realized that you can't defeat evil, you can only fight it. He relearns that lesson and channels his frustration into a clever way to do maximal damage. Actually, I'm not sure I've ever understood quite what was going on there at the end, but it was epic. Dragons.

Way late. But I could not let the whole "network, episodic, consequences discussion" go by utterly without H:LOTS getting props. Both for the Adena Watson case(boyish hottie lead gets a *loser* first case, and may have had to let the murderer go free, and is probably haunted by that forever, despite all the scum he locks up.)

And The Mahoney Shoot(season 5): Detective Kellerman acts to save his partner's life against a man that has shot police in the recent past...Is Mahoney all bad? Would they even be there if Lewis hadn't gone in looking for frontier justice? Kellerman never stopped paying for a split-second reaction. I read that the network pushed Simon into killing Mahoney so as to not seem to condone drugdealing so Simon retaliated by making the fallout as extensive as possible to cheat us of the "Good riddance," vibe.

Camcam, wouldn't that be season 1? You know -- post- lawyers in the wine cellar.

Season 2 is the wine cellar season.

The most recent People magazine has two pages on DB, with pictures of him, the wife and cute kid, and stills from Bones and Buffy.

Apparently he's fond of Whoopie cushions on set, though the article said nothing about any clothing-optional tendencies.