Question on Bones. Is that 8PM Eastern? Because then it's 7 Central and I want to check it out, too.

yes, it's 7 CST because House comes on at 8.

Well, the thing is, if you're going to curse someone, telling them how to break the curse is sort of counter-intuitive. The gypsies weren't interested in making Angelus into a good guy, they were interested in making him suffer. If Angelus, immediately upon being cursed, knew how to break it, he'd likely try his best to do so (both to return to what he was and to stop the pain the curse was causing him.) He didn't get cursed and go "Poof, I'm Angel now. I better not lose my soul, lest I become evil again." It was a long, slow process to become the Angel we know.

As for the curse having the happiness clause in the first place, I've never had a problem with it, as one of the big things about curses and the like in myth and fairytales is they have a way to be broken. If you're cursing someone to suffer, true happiness is a logical "cure".

Plus, as someone I forget said long ago, if you're serving vengeance as a philosophy then inflicting Angelus on whoever made Angel happy enough to break the curse fits right in line with the spirit of the thing.

Plus, as someone I forget said long ago, if you're serving vengeance as a philosophy then inflicting Angelus on whoever made Angel happy enough to break the curse fits right in line with the spirit of the thing.

Right, I mentioned that. I'm just not sure why you'd want your people around if there was a chance of it happening. It's not like Uncle John O'Connor sounded like he had given up his vengeful ways.

The gypsies weren't interested in making Angelus into a good guy, they were interested in making him suffer.

I agree. And ensuring that he'd have to spend his eternal life guarding against ever being happy for even a moment would be a pretty good way to do that. They gave a a sadist every motive in the world to treat himself sadistically. And he's got a knack for it, so he'll probably think of much better ways to torture himself than they ever would.

Barry Manilow concerts, for example.

If Angelus, immediately upon being cursed, knew how to break it, he'd likely try his best to do so

Which is where the curse becomes a nice catch-22. Any deliberate attempt to get rid of the soul is an acknowledgement that he's not happy about having it. Which means that he's not perfectly happy, which means it's not going anywhere. It's wonderfully self-defeating.

Strega speaks for me. Of course, I first typed, "Strega speaks for you," which sounds like a political slogan.

Or a horrible nightmare. Possibly involving ventriloquism.

Ooh. Plot bunny.

I agree. And ensuring that he'd have to spend his eternal life guarding against ever being happy for even a moment would be a pretty good way to do that. They gave a a sadist every motive in the world to treat himself sadistically. And he's got a knack for it, so he'll probably think of much better ways to torture himself than they ever would.

But the thing is I don't think they expected Angel to ever actively seek amends or integrate having a conscience into his persona. Prior to Angel (as far as anyone knows) there was never a vampire with a soul before. I imagine the gypsies just expected to him to spend the rest of existance eating rats in alleys and bemoaning his fate as the soul tortured him with his sins. If Angel was going to intentionally make himself unhappy, it would mean he wanted to keep the soul, which he initially did not.

Which is where the curse becomes a nice catch-22. Any deliberate attempt to get rid of the soul is an acknowledgement that he's not happy about having it. Which means that he's not perfectly happy, which means it's not going anywhere. It's wonderfully self-defeating.

Maybe. But why to take the risk of him figuring a way out of it when they can just as easily leave him in the dark?

I don't know, maybe the gypsies did intend to tell him but he ran off into the night before they had a chance. But it falls in the category of Ethan's staying around to gloat coming back to bite him in the ass, for me.

But the thing is I don't think they expected Angel to ever actively seek amends or integrate having a conscience into his persona.

I don't understand what that has to do with what I've said. I haven't argued that Angel's desire to make amends was important or relevant to their intentions.

But why to take the risk of him figuring a way out of it when they can just as easily leave him in the dark?

Well, not telling him certainly contributed to the curse being broken. It seems unlikely that telling him could have a worse effect than total failure. Assuming they wanted the curse to remain unbroken.