They shouldn't cover up the heartlessness of not telling them about their daughter's death, but Angel's not there to take the moral high ground and let them know the truth.

They = the characters or the writers? Wesley's nutzoid behavior made something like sense; it was trying to understand ME that took me out of that story. I felt like the Burkles were just a device to get Illyria to fuck with Wesley and we weren't supposed to see them as actual people. And the problem was, the Burkles are a lot easier for me to relate to than any of the main characters at that point, so I was horrified on their behalf and couldn't understand why the writers made that decision.

But thanks, all, for answering. I guess it's all meta-reasons that made it bother me so much.

I didn't hate "The Girl in Question" -- it's a farce, like "The Zeppo" or "Storyteller," though less well-done than either of the earlier episodes. I do think not having SMG hurt it a lot, but I didn't consider it a crippling blow. And AA and AD really did hit the Fred/Ilyria material out of the park.

My problem with the end of Angel was that it felt like they were at point K, and they knew they wanted to end at point Z, and they skipped over most of the material in-between. "Not Fade Away" isn't a bad episode, but I don't think the whole black circle thingie was earned. At all. And for that reason, I hated the end of Angel S5.

It always feels declassé to admit this, but ... I liked Spike. Liked him a lot. I think the soul was a mistake, and I think the writing on him was inconsistent, but I don't think any single episode or season would have been better without him.

And I'd be up for discussion of specific episodes. One way to do it might be grouping them into themed blocks -- say, "Dopplegangland"/"Hell's Bells"/"Selfless" as an Anya block -- and then discuss the block of episodes as a whole for a week, or a month, or whatever seems right.

It always feels declassé to admit this, but ... I liked Spike. Liked him a lot. I think the soul was a mistake, and I think the writing on him was inconsistent, but I don't think any single episode or season would have been better without him.

Hey. I like him, and don't even think the soul was a mistake. After that though, I'm in agreement with you. I think they didn't have a good plan for him, after the ensouling though, and the rest of his arc was not well written, or well executed.

I'm in for some sort of structured re-watching. That'd be fun, and allow me to get my thoughts out of my head and onto the screen where they can bounce off of Buffistas and become better.

They = the characters or the writers?

I was thinking the characters. As for the writers: I think you're right, the Burkles were used as a device. Most side characters are only invented or used to highlight aspects of the mains, in pretty much all TV shows, I think. That doesn't mean we can't feel for the side characters, or that the side characters should be written in a way that makes it OBVIOUS that the writers are using them as props.

In this case, I think the writing justified their treatment, as the reason they seem to be treated without respect is because the characters don't see them as worthy of respect. That doesn't mean we can't respect them, and feeling horrified for their situation is a perfectly valid reaction to the episode, clearly, but I think the horror should be directed at the inhumanity of Wes and Illyria, rather than the writers who wrote them inhumane.

Most side characters are only invented or used to highlight aspects of the mains, in pretty much all TV shows, I think.

For the Burkles, yes, I think that's true. I do think some of the side characters in the ME verse were created, at least initially, because the creators liked the actors. Jonathan is a prime example of this, to my mind. I've been watching the series from the begiining for the last few weeks, and it fun to watch the character go from background extra to non-speaking hostage to saying one or two lines, knowing that he will have a larger part in Earshot, and then a much larger one in Superstar, etc.

I think the horror should be directed at the inhumanity of Wes and Illyria, rather than the writers who wrote them inhumane.

But... I'm having trouble explaining it, I guess. If I got the sense that I was supposed to feel badly for the Burkles, I'd be okay with it. If I thought that the writers were aware that the Burkles were being treated horribly, I'd be okay with it. But even the set-up made no sense to me. The Burkles drop by the office without any warning to visit their only daughter, who they haven't seen in years, for a couple of hours while on their way to Hawaii. All of that seems incredibly clumsy. The goal was clearly just to get Illyria to imitate Fred, and surely there were simpler ways to get there.

And I feel like it didn't even occur to the writers that we'd see anything wrong with any of it. There's a bit where Mrs. Burkle hints that Wesley should date Fred, and my reaction was 1) Is this supposed to be funny? and 2) If not, am I supposed to feel bad for Wesley here, and not for Fred's mother? The whole time I was genuinely bewildered as to what the writers intended.

Since I ended up feeling absolutely awful for the Burkles, without any meta-reservations, your issues didn't occur to me until you spelled them out just now.

I felt sad for everyone when the Burkles came to visit. People who genuinely liked Fred's folks couldn't bear to tell them Fred was dead, and they didn't know how to explain why that wasn't their daughter standing there. The Burkles didn't know that their hopes were baseless, and we just got to sit there and think about all the things that weren't going to happen because the world is not as it seems. Illyria may have been enjoying playing with the sub-creatures, but I think she also thought that she was doing something that Wes would approve of, making the Burkles happy that their daughter was doing well. It was one of those "this cannot end well, and there's just no fixing it" moments.

All of that seems incredibly clumsy. The goal was clearly just to get Illyria to imitate Fred, and surely there were simpler ways to get there.

I see what you mean, but don't completely agree. Yes, the Burkles dropping in without warning was awkward to the point of straining credibility, and yes the whole point was to bring the pain, but their presence made "Fred's" appearance particularly wrenching in this respect: Illyria wasn't pretending to be Fred to manipulate Wes nor to please him, which seem to me the most likely simpler ways to get there. Wesley not only had to see Fred, he also had to hold in his reaction while the Burkles were there, and he saw Illyria (try to) do something kind and considerate (by her standards at least), which further complicated his already tormented view of her. None of that answers your complaint about the treatment of the Burkles, but as a dramatic ploy I'm not sorry they did it. Granted, I was more than willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt when it came to giving AD spotlight moments. And I was probably less willing than I needed to be to appreciate whatever was good about the Spike spotlights. Which could have something to do with AD's near-unfailing ability to hit the right tone in his spotlights, something other than "HEY! Look at me! This is my big scene!"