I'm in the process of starting a new critique group--we're trying to figure out the logistics of when to meet and so on. And while I'm already in one writers group, this is the first time I've gotten in on the ground floor and had a major voice in determining how something like this works. We'll probably end up doing a lot of our critiquing online just because of scheduling and because 2 out of 4 of us have small children, but we'll try to meet when we can.

To me, the obvious ground rules are as follows:

1. We want to encourage each other to keep writing, so therefore we'll make sure to point out the positive in each other's work.

2. We also want to help each other improve and ultimately become published, so we'll be honest and constructive, not pretending something is just fine when it needs work.

Anyone got any best and worst critique group experiences or advice on what does and doesn't work?

More good drabbles!

Connie and erika, those were great.

Kristin, I love yours -- and it has your sense of poetry, which is just beautiful.

Lyra, those are fantastic -- the contrast is great. I'd like to meet them both. One thing I've always wondered -- how do you pronounce Ainsley?

Sail, that's lovely -- I want to read it again.

Anyone got any best and worst critique group experiences or advice on what does and doesn't work?

Personally, I think it helps if the person who is being critiqued asks specifically what they're looking for -- does the dialogue work here, for instance, or do you believe in this villain's motivation? Overall critique, aside from other pointing out stuff they love, can be difficult because I've found it leads to people wanting to you to edit/rewrite your work the way they see it -- they want more action! more romance! more description! a different subplot! which can be confusing, especially if it's all contradictory. But that could be just me. And I don't know how you legislate that, unless you make it clear that each person submitting should let everyone know they're looking for input on Element X.

Amy's points are all good. I've been lucky in my groups, but they all seem to devolve after a point in time. The last one just fizzled, and I can't seem to work up a good enough head of steam to start looking for another one, or to try and start one. Plus, I've never had a group devoted to long fiction. The ones I've been part of couldn't handle episodic stuff. They seemed to need poems or short pieces, fiction or non-, that the discussion of could be completed in a single meeting.

Sail! I love that. It needs a whole story around it, right now, please. Get on it, okay?

In my classes I stressed the fact that we were there to help the writer write their work, and so comments based on how WE would approach the story or even if we liked the subject matter were not helpful. It doesn't help a writer to know that you hate stories with ghosts in them, since they obviously don't, and your job is not to tell them to take the ghosts out.

I would advise readers to make notes AS THEY READ of any specific questions ("Is that woman her Aunt?") and of any moments where they were confused or bored and to let the writer know exactly where those were and why. I used to ask that reader not only talk about what isn't working but make suggestions on things the writer might do--this helps not only the writer, but it helps limber up the "what if" muscles for the reader's own work. When comments come up--look for consesus--if one person hates the character of the brother, that may be a personal quirk--if everyone hates him, it's something for the writer to look at.

I also didn't allow the writer to explain. The work needs to speak for itself and I was firm that it was a given that all the choices the writer made were for a good reason and since the writer already knew those reasons, enumerating them didn't help the writer learn anything new. Thsi is very difficult for some folks, but it leads to more fruitful discussion.

Ours is less a critique group than it is a working writers, "tell us what you need to know about what you've just chosen to read to us tonight" feedback group. One thing I'd make damned sure of in advance, if possible, is that everyone in the group can, in fact, write.

We had a dear sweet man come to two of our groups, and he was one of the worst writers I've ever come across. Ask Betsy. She was there. His stuff was so awful, you couldn't meet his eye; one of our group members actually thought this stuff was supposed to be satire.

Plus, I've never had a group devoted to long fiction.

Are they all romance writers, Susan? I would love to be a group devoted to one genre -- tin my current group everyone is writing novels, but they're all over the map, genre-wise, and some of them don't ever read romance, so...not so helpful.

Bev, I was in a group very briefly that included people writing, essentially, greeting card verse. It was tough for me, because while that can be fun, it's tough to switch gears from ways to say "I'm sorry your cat died" to the opening scene of a murder mystery.

I've never tried a formal group (meatspace, that is), but for me, the "this part doesn't seem to work, I think the dialogue is off, help me with it" would be best. And you'd have to come down hard on the sort of people who seem to think "critique" is a license to see how many pieces you can slice somebody's ego into.

I want to know moremoremore, now!

I need to write it down in a more settled form, but the rough sketch would be that this is a novel about two sisters in their late teens or early 20s. Ainsley, who won't tell me whether she's the younger or older sister (or possibly a twin), was at one point a moderately famous child actress/singer, but had a baby at 16 by a truly scuzzy manager. She 's a pretty useless mother, and Ainsley and Abbey's parents aren't really around; as a result, Abbey is the primary caretaker for her niece, now three. Cue laughter, tears, learning, hugs, drama, etc.

Or, anyhow, cue those things once I write the book.

One thing I've always wondered -- how do you pronounce Ainsley?

I'm pretty sure it's Aynz-lee, though some anonymous internet person says it should be Ashley. (I guess following Aislin/Ashlynn). The caveat there is, I stole it from Margaret Atwood, so I've never heard it on a RL person.

Worst writing group experience? Having to explain to a man twice my age that it really truly wasn't "mother-fucker" honest. No hyphen required. I may look like a pixie, but I know from Mafia drama. He was not convinced.

And you'd have to come down hard on the sort of people who seem to think "critique" is a license to see how many pieces you can slice somebody's ego into.

I don't tolerate that at my writers group - never have, never will. There is no trashing allowed; that's why, when a space opens up at my table, I'm really careful these days to make sure the new member is a decent writer, published or not being beside the point.