Coming in late to the rap discussion, but rap's origins are usually traced back to the aftermath of the Watts Riots in the late 60s, when a group out of the Watts Writers Workshop took to the streets with a fusion of poetry and African percussion, calling themselves the Watts Prophets. At almost exactly the same time in New York City, at the Harlem writer's workshop "East Wind," a similar group called the Last Poets appeared with a fairly similar schtick. The Watts Prophets probably have a few weeks on the Last Poets, but the Last Poets put out what's generally considered the first rap album, "The Last Poets," in 1970.

Both groups are still around, and I've had the honor of meeting both of them.

ETA: I'm mistaken. The Watts Prophets first album came out in 1969. Which embarrasing for me -- I usually teach a unit on the history of rap when I teach poetry in high schools.

Hi Deb. Don't know if you still want me in this conversation. Here is the thing. I don't have years of acquaintence with you. I mean I've been on the board with you but have not had the huge amounts of back and forth some other have had. So if I contribute there is a good chance it will be stuff you will already know. The only reason for me make suggestion is on the basis that there is 1% chance you miss something. When I mentioned Gil-Scot Heron I even suggested you might know him. So do you want my contributions on the basis that any suggestion I make will probably be something you know - but there is a 1% chance it may either be something you don't know or something you do know or will remind you of something you know but might not bring to the forefront of your mind? If that is acceptable I'm happy to help. But if it just irritates you -well you have plenty of irritation in your life, and I'm sure there are other areas where maybe my input would be more helpful to you one day. At this point I'm pretty much taking it for granted that I'm being more irritating than helpful rather than the reverse and backing off - but if you feel that I could still help I'm happy to.

Deb? You want most popular/influential around 1995 - 2Pac vs. Notorious B.I.G. was the Big Thing right then. Tribe Called Quest was verra popular, too.

Here are the 1995 Grammy winners:

• Best Rap Album: Poverty's Paradise, Naughty by Nature (Tommy Boy)
• Best Rap Solo Performance: "Gangsta's Paradise," Coolio
• Best Rap Performance By a Duo or Group "I'll Be There for You"/"You're All I Need to Get By," Method Man/Mary J. Blige

I also think that New Jack Swing was winding up then, and Wikipedia says the golden era of hip hop had just ended.

Wikipedia has some interesting content about hip hop, though, as always, isn't necessarily solid in and of itself.

Don't know if you still want me in this conversation.

Hell yes. I just tend to react to anyone if it sounds as if I'm being lectured about things, rather than pointed toward things. It's a very different tone, but it's my problem and my issue, not yours (or whoever I'm talking to). Any information is good, any input is good, and it's only ever the intent I'm reacting to. Keep it coming, Gar. No input is ever not absorbed.

ita's and juliana's posts are marked. How in hell did I forget Coolio? I remember wanting to go upside his head with something heavy for being a humourless, dour prick over Weird Al's wanting to filk Gangsta's Paradise. As in, dude? You are really NOT all of that. Shut up and let the boy make you even more money.

edit: holy SHIT, I remember the Prophets! Wow. Lot of water under the bridges between now and the Panther years.

OK - then assuming you have not already read it, I recommend "Can’t Stop Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip-Hop Generation" By Jeff Chang

His site: [link]

It is an interesting take on the lost potential of hip-hop and how it ended up the way it did. He also may give you a really articulate view of someone who likes it musically, and some of the underground stuff that is still being produced. He loves hip-hop but is not blind to any of the flaws you mentioned (excluding the musical ones).

also - here are is a nice on-line time-line which probably you already found yourself, but in case not:

[link]

It is kind of handy because while by no means complete you can just look up a year and see names and events

For example if you scroll down to the 1995 section you will see a number of names we have not mention yet (includign Tupac and Queen Latifah). Nice - not in a teaches you something new but as a quick way to see what happened when.

Gar, post is marked. I'd heard of the Chang book, and have added it to the "ordering tomorrow" pile.

What Juliana said about the Biggie/2Pac thing. I have a surprising lack of hip-hop from 95-96 in my collection, and it's basically due to my dislike of Puffy. I think you can more or less disregard the Grammy winners if you're interested in "keepin it real" or whatever.

From that timeline thing:

Bone Thugs-N-Harmony break the record for fastest rising single with their hit "Tha Crossroads", the spot was previously held by The Beatles for "Can't Buy Me Love".

HAHAHAHA.

I remember "Can't Buy Me Love" - I can sing it, and cover every different harmony the Beatles threw at it.

I can't remember a note of "Tha Crossroads", although I do remember Bone Thugs, mostly because they had such a superb name.

Le sigh. This is going to be tricky.

But the timeline's emphasis on taggers and breakdancers - along with the Prophets - does reinforce my old take that it was urban performance and street art from the getgo.