Never occurred to me that someone would apologize for success and be sincere.

Good heavens, yes. Women are trained to do that in American society; be humble, be modest, have great aspirations but for heavens sake don't say what you think too loudly or you'll risk never getting a boyfriend. I was only vaguely aware of that in my own teens, since I got to the US at age 9, but I raised a daughter and became aware of it then. It's pervasive in this society.

Nicole, I loved that.

Good heavens, yes. Women are trained to do that in American society; be humble, be modest

Is it really a woman thing? I don't think I've been "trained" but I'm having massive issues right now describing why I was able to earn enough trust to collect money and run campaigns. Involves "bragging."

I found a way around it be discussing social capital, which puts me a degree outside, if that makes any sense. Talking about myself in a clinical way is helping. Otherwise it all sounds like, "look, I'm awesome."

You are awesome, Allyson. It isn't bragging if it's true.

I do think that men are more likely to say "I did a great job" than women are.

Is it really a woman thing? I don't think I've been "trained" but I'm having massive issues right now describing why I was able to earn enough trust to collect money and run campaigns. Involves "bragging."

Yep. It honestly is. Part of the backlash to feminism in this country is purely entrenched in that - "Hey, they demanded the right to play sports and get equal pay and get as a good an education! We only gave it to them because we knew they wouldn't be as good at this stuff as we were! What the hell do you mean, they are as good? STOP THAT!"

The scenario of the adolescent girl - "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!" - who comes home weeping because the boys don't like her, and is tactfully told by her parents to play dumber than she is or less gifted than she is or not able to play tennis or softball or whatever better than the boys because 'boys don't like girls who are too (insert skill set)" is as old as the American sitcom.

Thing is, they didn't pull that gestalt out of their asses. It made its way onto TV screens for decades, literally, because it was there to be mined and used in the first place. I don't know how many parents in America still tell their daughters that stuff, but they may not even need to. The vibe is in the air we breathe, and it horrifies me, as a woman and as a parent.

The scary thing, from my own perspective is, how defensive women get about being smart. I've never had the slightest problem saying "Yep, I write better than at least 95% of the writers I've met. Of course, my suckness at math is at the same level." And I get as much flak from a lot of women I know for not being ashamed of sucking at math as I do from a lot of the men for not being humble about how well I write.

I don't know. People are weird. But I do think it's a gender issue, on the societal level.

Thing is, they didn't pull that gestalt out of their asses. It made its way onto TV screens for decades, literally, because it was there to be mined and used in the first place. I don't know how many parents in America still tell their daughters that stuff, but they may not even need to. The vibe is in the air we breathe, and it horrifies me, as a woman and as a parent.

Oh, how I hate to reference Oprah, but she did a show a few weeks ago with Pink, about her song "Stupid Girl". It's Pink's reaction to girls who are all about being sexy over smart and strong, girls who think that having their breasts enlarged is more important than whether or not they're going to college.

I felt the whole "act dumb for the boys" thing growing up. Not from my parents (my mom was valedictorian, and my dad didn't finish college, so me being smart was important to them in different ways) but just...in the air.

Totally in the air.

It comes from the old patriarchic idea of gender roles: Man in the workplace, Woman in the home. Women aren't supposed to excell in matters outside the home, they're not even supposed to be interested in or understand them, because that's invading "men's" territory.

It's a terrible standard to be held to, for both men and women, though a lot of men don't grasp that, nor do a few women.

Some women are willing to trade agency in the world for safety from what they percieve as threats. Protection for submission. An age-old idea, and one that gives me a giant wiggins. I have no problem with anybody who wants to live that way. Just don't force it on me, or on anybody else who doesn't want it.

Totally in the air.

I never heard it, growing up. It wasn't modeled to me by my parents or the other families I knew. I probably even heard the opposite. I still knew about playing dumb, etc.

I saw girls who did it, too. Another Buffista and I were talking about what she called the Scarlett trip. I wasn't immune to it, but I (thankfully) outgrew it right quickly (and early) because I don't have the patience or attention to detail that believable pretense requires if you're going to stretch it out, more than five minutes.

It's Pink's reaction to girls who are all about being sexy over smart and strong, girls who think that having their breasts enlarged is more important than whether or not they're going to college

See, mine goes sideways in the middle of that. Where is it written that I can't be smart, strong AND sexy? Where is it written that I have to be one or the other? Fuck that. I was a terrible student, had zero interest in college, and have great legs. Anyone out there want to call me stupid? Bring it on. I do believe I have the evidence in hand to refute it.

I know plenty of college grads I consider nincompoops. Quite a few of them are PhD's: no social skills, no sense of humanism, no sense of self. I've seen far too many people whose glory years were their college years, who couldn't grow out of it, who still live there mentally and emotionally.

One does not have to negate the other.

One does not have to negate the other.

Actually, I should have mentioned that she made a point of saying that. Pink is sexy, herself, and she was very clear about exactly what you said -- you don't have to forego sexiness at all, but you should *never* play dumb.

And mentioning college was my fault -- lazy shorthand. I never graduated college, either, and I don't consider myself stupid at all.

One does not have to negate the other.

No, it emphaticially doesn't, but it cuts both ways. One shouldn't have to decide either/or, but that seems to be the choice as presented to girls: Sexy OR smart. Choose and enter.

I can't fault girls who choose smart over sexy, given that's the perception they have. I do confess a little contempt for those who choose sexy *over* smart, but that's my own biases at work. Deb's right though. Both are preferable to one or the other.