Deb, I think the problem is with the women's priorities in what they want out of a mate. They may value honesty, but they place a higher value on the man's ability to make them feel attractive. So, they put the poor schmuck in a bind of "which does she want tonight, honesty or comfort?"

Maybe her definition of soulmate is the man she trusts to know just when to lie to her.

Huh. Interesting idea. What happens to that trust when she walks into a party and forty people chorous at her in a single voice "JEEEEEZ, Lulu! Tony let you out of the house in that? You look like an elephant seal!"

edit:

So, they put the poor schmuck in a bind of "which does she want tonight, honesty or comfort?"

Same response. If he's lying to her in bed, I'd get it. But if they're going out and there's a chance the comfort is going to become ridicule...?

Nope. Still confused. Suspect my confusion isn't going anywhere soon.

What happens to that trust when she walks into a party and forty people chorous at her in a single voice "JEEEEEZ, Lulu! Tony let you out of the house in that? You look like an elephant seal!"

Fuck. I'd never want to go to that party, even if it's not me they're talking to.

But I'm wagering -- she knows that she wants to be lied to, and is hoping everyone will. If they don't, it's not his fault.

No, I wouldn't want to go near that party, myself. But it's really just an extreme example of forty people glancing sidelong and then glancing away. Unless she's the world's worst self-deceiver, she's going to get a sinking feeling in the pit of her tum, surely? And isn't that the genesis of what Sail was talking about, the whole "putting him in a bind" thing?

But I'm wagering -- she knows that she wants to be lied to, and is hoping everyone will. If they don't, it's not his fault.

That, put that way, does explain rather more. Also makes me glad that if I hold up something I'm not sure about - my own clothing choice issues on which I'm likely to ask Nic's opinion are more about colour than fit, since I have a deep, deep love for the golds and yellows and rally can't tell when they don't work on me - I can trust him to say "Sweetie - jaundice. Really no. Do they have one in bronze, or deep green?"

I think that most people can tell for themselves when something looks absolutely terrible. When it's at the point where you need to ask someone else if it makes you look fat, then it's probably something that looks at least OK.

When it's at the point where you need to ask someone else if it makes you look fat, then it's probably something that looks at least OK.

That would also be my take, although if you could please to convince my ginger-haired olive-skinned freckled green-eyed sister that she looks like the poster child for bubonic plague in pale pink, I would send you cookies and roses.

But in that instance? I'm asking because I'm genuinely uncertain, and if I find I'm being lied to about it, I'm going to be pissed. The stereotype seems to be canted precisely the other way.

It's not important. Just one of the many many things I do not understand about how a culture occasionally works.

It's monkey grooming. Sometimes the value of the interaction isn't in the truth/lie. Lie To Me. Joss wrote about it, even.

Lie To Me. Joss wrote about it, even.

OK, now I'm really confused.

If I'm remembering that episode correctly, Angel lies to Buffy in the first place, claims he wasn't with Drusilla, when Buffy asks him pointblank.

So - I don't get it. If she'd asked him if she looked fat, and he'd lied to her about it and she'd caught him in the lie - what am I missing?

Or is my complete inability to grok this going to just frustrate me?

BUFFY
Well, does it ever get easy?

Ford BURSTS from the grave, a snarling VAMPIRE, and lunges at Buffy -- who plants a stake firmly in his chest. She doesn't even look as he explodes into dust.

GILES
You mean life?

BUFFY
Yeah. Does it get easy?

GILES
What do you want me to say.

She thinks about it a moment.

BUFFY
Lie to me.

GILES
Yes. It's terribly simple.

As they start out of the graveyard:

GILES
The good-guys are stalwart and true.
The bad-guys are easily distinguished
by their pointy horns or black hats and
we always defeat them and save the day.
Nobody ever dies…and everybody lives
happily ever after.

BLACK OUT.

BUFFY (O.S.)
(with weary affection)
Liar.

Yes, but she knows Giles is lying to her - she hasn't prefaced that speech with "For God's sake, Giles, be straight with me." She has stated, flat out, that what she's just been through has worn her down and she wants a moment of peace, of fantasy.

And when she asks Angel, early on, about seeing him with Drusilla, she doesn't want to be lied to - doesn't all the grief start precisely because Angel isn't straight with her?