It's an illooooosion. The IM is quicker than the eye.

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In my philosophy, no one has a right to take another person's life for any reason because this life is all a person gets, and taking it away means annihilating them forever.

I love how you put that, Jen. I've heard non-atheists claim that atheists don't value life as much because they don't believe in an immortal soul, but this phrase hits that argument right below the waterline.

What fascinates me about these discussions is that so many different belief systems seem to arrive at similar conclusions (life is precious, we need to take care of this planet, we need to make sure that the downtrodden are protected, etc.) from entirely different starting points.

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Coffee and crackers:

The realtor comes on Monday to take pictures of the house. I have today and tomorrow to finish up most of what needs to be done. Things that won't show in photos or that can be discreetly hidden don't have to be done, but there's a lot left to do.

How stressed out am I over the house thing? Let's just say that three out of the past four nights I have woken up at 2 am with an upset tummy and a brain that won't turn off.

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Happy Anniversary Kat & Lori!

Happy Birthday Beverly!

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What fascinates me about these discussions is that so many different belief systems seem to arrive at similar conclusions (life is precious, we need to take care of this planet, we need to make sure that the downtrodden are protected, etc.) from entirely different starting points.

Yes. This.

How stressed out am I over the house thing? Let's just say that three out of the past four nights I have woken up at 2 am with an upset tummy and a brain that won't turn off.

Poor Anne! And good luck. I have total faith in you. You're gonna get it done.

Happy Anniversary, Kat and Lori!

Happy Birthday, Beverly!

Why is it, no matter *what* time I go to bed, I can't sleep past 8am? It's the one stupid thing about the new medication. Actually, I suppose it's a good thing, but it still makes me crazy.

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Poor Anne! And good luck. I have total faith in you. You're gonna get it done.

Thanks! I still need to find work in St. Louis, but I think I'll be able to pay more attention to that next week once the house is actually on the market.

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I still need to find work in St. Louis, but I think I'll be able to pay more attention to that next week once the house is actually on the market.

That makes MUCH sense.

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Happy Birthday, Beverly

Happy Anniversary, Lori & Kat

(who will probably never see this, and so I should xpost in Natter)

How stressed out am I over the house thing? Let's just say that three out of the past four nights I have woken up at 2 am with an upset tummy and a brain that won't turn off.

Anne, you'll do it, girl. Break it into chunks. Take breaks. Don't forget to eat, drink and pee. You'll do it.

I love how you put that, Jen. I've heard non-atheists claim that atheists don't value life as much because they don't believe in an immortal soul, but this phrase hits that argument right below the waterline.

Yes. Wow, some people are stupid. Feel the love flow through me, but really (!!!). If we remove the stupid people from the discourse, we are still left with the inarticulate. If we remove the inarticulate, we will still have to contend with the usually articulate people, who suffer bouts of footinmouthitis (which is pretty much everyone).

That I believe all goodness comes from God, does not mean I think only those who know God can be good. In fact, I *know* from experience the opposite is true, because I know atheists, other non-theists, and agnostics who are good.

I think some non-atheists have trouble with that idea, either in the conceptualizing of it, or the articulation of it. The counter charge to the idea you've heard Anne is, of course, that those who believe in an afterlife, lack the appropriate reverence and respect for the earthly lives of others, and fail to show the appropriate care in their own actions and decisions.

Neither charge is particularly useful, in my opinion. Even if it could be proven that the logical outcome of either an atheistic philosophy or a Christian philosophy is a lower opinion/treatment of (earthly) life, what evidence do we have that humans are this logical and consistent in their thinking, and actions?

I have read discussions in that vein by Christian writers, and even where I see the point as it pertains to potential abuses inherent in atheism, the good writers allow that there is potential for abuse present in any belief system, because humans hold the beliefs, and they also take care to note that there are good and bad people in every belief system, because people don't just fit in a box, like that.

I have not seen any philosophy that does not have a built in potential for abuse. I think that where the potential for abuse lies in a given system, depends on the elements of that belief system.

I have a really hard time dealing with the death of a loved one because I believe they're completely gone. I don't believe my grandmother is watching me from Heaven. I don't believe she's gone to a better place. I don't believe her soul lives on. I don't believe that she'll be waiting at the end of the tunnel of light for me when I die. She's dead, and she is gone from my life forever. That's a pain that will never leave me.

Perhaps strangely, the idea of my own death and subsequent non-existance doesn't really bother me all that much. It probably will as I get older and closer to it.

Jen, I don't think it's strange. When I indicated upstream that I think I would find it comforting to have an atheist's outlook on death being final, I have to say, I only meant that as it pertains to me. The death of loved ones? Not so much. I'm way on the other side of the stream. In fact, I am on the opposite side of what is probably an entirely different stream, most likely on another continent.

I have felt their presence (of some of them), though. I know this can't be "evidence" to you, or to anyone but me, but the few times it has happened, I have known it is real, and so it is evidence for/revelation to me. I suppose this is much like what Susan described regarding her prayers.

On a more positive (to me, anyway) note, I'm pretty sure my admittedly extreme beliefs in nonviolence and veganism come from my disbelief in an afterlife. In my philosophy, no one has a (continued...)

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right to take another person's life for any reason because this life is all a person gets, and taking it away means annihilating them forever. The unique person they were is gone and will never exist again. There are no higher stakes than that. A life, any life, is no one's entitlement to take. It's no one's prerogative.

Even though I don't share your opinion that death is final, I do think your philosophy is just. I have started to question why I don't extend that to other animals, given that I am certain all life is from God. I don't know what I am going to do about these questions either, because I am a dedicated carnivore. Right now, the issue is on my list of "Should I Be Convicted of This" questions, to be looked at seriously and fully, someday.

And I'd go further and say that no one has a right to take an animal's life for their own benefit, be it food or amusement (like hunting/fishing). All sentient animals, even non-mammalian ones like chickens and fish, are entitled to live out the natural course of their lives without being killed and/or conscriped forcibly to feed us, since we can live in perfect health without their flesh or byproducts. One life is all they get, too, and it's not my right to end it.

But I understand that I lose most everyone there, even the folks who are as uncompromising about the nonviolence towards humans as I am.

You only lose me on the animals rights issues if we are talking about all farming. Factory farms are a disgrace, and until I was exposed to people who rail against them, I had no idea. I had no idea, because I have dairy farmers in my family, and the animals are well cared for and well treated. I guess I am enough of a speciesist, that I don't find the conscription of animals offensive, if the animals are respected and tended with care. I think that's what I have to look at, re my list I mentioned above--which of my opinions and attitudes about the use of animals and animal products are right and wrong, and which I just hold because of habit and/or culture.

There may be reincarnation, there may not. There may be "old souls", ones that come back again or have the energy to become "ghosts" or whathaveyou. I think there are, but I'm not one of them. I have a distinct feeling that after this life, I'm done. And that's cool. I'll need the sleep, anyway.

Yeah, I'm brand spanking new. I can tell by all the bumbling. I'm like a baby who can't keep hold of mother's nipple.

I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it, and I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia.

You made my allergies act up, Susan. Even at the lowest points of my faith, this is how I feel.

When I think about the consequences of treating others in the way Jesus taught people to (and um, I am so not there, I'm talking lifelong journey-wise), I think it is both right, and also a good life. A while back, people were discussing Pascal's Wager, here. Someone (Betsy, I think) mentioned the downside to the wager if there is no God, and one that she doesn't see considered when the wager is discussed: if this is all we have, then we have lost it all, and this becomes as big as infinity, in the context of what is possible for an individual life. I thought about it a lot, at first, because I didn't understand what she meant. But I don't think that, for the most part, the things my religion tells me are right, are right simply because my religion tells me them, if that makes sense.

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Happy birthday, Beverly!

aurelia has a new tag.

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