Or, in other words, I'm trying to say 'Look, it probably seems like I'm trolling here as this is going on and on'.

I think you're right about this. Sometimes when having a conversation about a group of people with that group of people, as more and more grow offended by how they're being described and characterized, there comes a point when it's wiser to step away rather than repeatedly attempt to justify your interpretation and risk further offense.

Separate from whether an individual is part of fandom or not, since that's a self-definition thing, where do people see the lines between fans and fandom. I don't know myself. Going to Cons says Fandom to me, but I've never been to one and I could be wrong.

Fandom can be a pain in the ass, and devour you starting with your bottom.

I couldn't write objectively about fandom without stepping outside of it. And though fandom is the motherland from which I came, and I have a lot of pride about it and visit it often, I don't live there anymore. It's kind of like Boston for me, that way.

but those who engage the fans enter into that movement.

That's interesting. By the time we became the b.org, I think he was engaging with friends, some who really dig his work, but if he never wrote another thing, would still like him a hella lot for reasons that have nothing to do with what he does for a living.

Matt - I'm well down the bunny hole...

In fairness, I'm not saying "Look, you people are evil!~@! Allyson is the devil~@!". I like Allyson's posts. I make a point of reading them, and stylistically she's probably my #1 choice of These Are The Posts I Remember. In real life, she's the kind of person I'd get on with I suspect.

Separate from whether an individual is part of fandom or not, since that's a self-definition thing, where do people see the lines between fans and fandom.

I think you have to do some sort of in-depth and community-oriented thing, which could be cons, could be fic, could be analysis.

where do people see the lines between fans and fandom.

Oh! Good question! I do think that still wanders into self-definition, somewhat, but I do think anytime money's involved to be somewhere to see someone or be part of something, like a con or a fan party, that would equal membership in a fandom. For most people, at least, putting down money on travel and lodging equals a commitment.

Does it have to be good or useful analysis, Jesse? I mean, would prattling on endlessly about the curl of Spike's hair count?

I mean, would prattling on endlessly about the curl of Spike's hair count?

Are you kidding? In some corners that would make you a BNF.

Does it have to be good or useful analysis, Jesse? I mean, would prattling on endlessly about the curl of Spike's hair count?

I think if you're doing your prattling in a context where other people are reading it, then sure it could count. I think it's the effort+community thing that makes fandom, and effort could mean money like Monique says, or just time.

Realize I haven't thought about this until just now, so I reserve the right to refine my opinion.

I've often considered myself a fan, but other people tend not to classify me as one. I don't go to cons, and I hate spending money on merchandise, which are two things that some fans I've met seem to define themselves by.