Gus - from what I understand this kind of stuff is OK to discuss here; it is not just the technical support thread,but also the tech discussion thread - at least I gathered this last time I offered to move a discussion to natter.

My feeling is that the concept itself is not busted. The relational model is still the best way to handle a lot of standard business concepts. (An alternative model is out there - object orientation. But pure object oriented databases have their own problems.)

I think the best solution where the relational model makes sense from a functionality standpoint is simply better wrappers from the user stand point to hide the relationality.

For example, you could allow the user to create an customer object that contains invoices which in turn contains lines. But behind the scene, it creates seperate customer , invoice, and line item tables related via primary and foreign keys. In other words the user would think he had created one type of object, but behind the scenes three tables would be created , along with an updateable view. So when the day came (and it would) when someone needed to do stuff you that is really hard to do in a hierachical database (which is what an object oriented database really is) you would have the underlying tables available to relation querying and if need be updates in.

For further information see the debate between Date and Codd on three dimensional databases. I favor Date's view.

Not saying the relational model is perfect for everything. A CAD system or a multilevel bill of materials while possible, is a nightmare in a pure or semi-pure relational system. There is not one true database model that is equally good for every purpose.

But I maintain that for most business uses - and a whole lot of scientific and engineering one as well, the relational model is the best fit. It simply that the relational model is very counter-intuitive for many people; if you want people for whom this is the case to design and maintain their own databases you need to hide the relationality from them.

ND, I found a great group up here that takes old electronic (music and computer) equipment, teaches kids how to do electronic repair on them, rehabs them, and ships them to the Third World for use in classrooms. [link] Perhaps there's a group like that in the LA area? I get great tax deductions, and I feel good that the stuff isn't going into the landfill.

Cool. I'll look for something like that down here. I've also got some old musical gear that I should really clear out as well.

I know that a lot of the elementary schools in my area grateully took any old computer equipment to teach the kids on. So that's an option too.

Sadly, any friends that I might be able to sell my current TiVo to, I've already converted to the wisdom of TiVolove, and they already HAVE them.

i'm in the market for a tivo, meara. what are the specs on the one you want to sell?

Oooh. Tiggy with the tempting! It's a 60 hour, Tiggy. Series 2. Has always worked fine for me--I bought it...hmm....almost 2 years ago--it was in March.

hmmm...wanna email me about what you want for it, etc? profile email is good.

DH has a new iMac G5 in the other room (17", 1.8Ghz, Superdrive).

I have envy.

I also have a question. Our printer is a serial printer connected to my (WinXP) computer. I know the instructions for getting the iMac to use the printer are somewhere in the manual, but if someone here knows off the top of their head, it'd probably be faster...

I have envy.

You're not the only one.

(Okay, and he just sing-songed "I love my new computer, la la la!" from the other room. That's just not nice.)

We've named it Angelus.