Gah. Once again I've let myself get behind right as the discussion starts. I'm hoping to finish up tonight before the Asher talk is done. I've skimmed a bit of the discussion but I don't want to get too deeply into it before I finish reading.

Suddenly realizing it's been nearly two months since I had a weekend at home. Sigh.

For all of Asher's selfishness, what about his father's? All travel all the time, moving the family, the possible danger. Why is his calling/method better than Asher's?

Exactly!

Also -- all three family members have this monomania -- it's just that Asher's conflicts with his parents'.

For all of Asher's selfishness, what about his father's? All travel all the time, moving the family, the possible danger. Why is his calling/method better than Asher's?

Well for one thing Asher's father was out saving lives. And he was apparently very good at what he did. And for another, his dad had the support and approval of his wife, the Rebbe, and the community. In fact, the only one who disapproved was Asher. That's in sharp contrast to Asher's goals that were discouraged and eventually tolerated but never really approved of by anyone in his family or community.

So what makes Aryeh's better is that it's community approved- saving lives is an inherent good, making the world a better place, but really good art makes the world a better place too- but it is at the detriment to his family. Rivkeh was constantly worried about him, what if something had happened? After the death of her brother, she mightn't been able to deal. But, he was miserable staying home, and so he left.

I don't think either acted inherently selflessly or selfishly. I think Aryeh cared more about what he was doing for other people and how it affected their lives, although he certainly enjoyed completing his tasks and traveling. I think Asher cared more about expressing ultimate truth as an artist regardless of its effect on anyone or anything. This isn't to say that saving lives is nobler than great art, or that Aryeh is a better person than Asher. But on a spectrum of selfish and selfless I think Aryeh's goals were closer to the selfless and Asher's closer to the selfish.

And I don't understand why, what the criteria is that makes doing something you want to do, that's accepted and revered by your community less selfish than trying to explain the world, wrestling with the messy, complicated and ugliness of it, and being shunned by every one you love for your need to do it.

We can say art makes the world a better place, because, as a group, we get it. But Aryeh didn't get it at all. He still thinks of Asher's gift as foolishness. I don't think Rivkeh understood it either. I think the Rebbe understood that the secular world regarded art as important and that it had the potential to make the world better, but I don't think he understood how.

I think people have to be taught how to understand and appreciate art. This kind of education was never a part of the Ladover community.

Maybe Wolfram or someone can answer a question for me? How is it that such great composers as the Gershwins and Berlin came out of the Jewish (perhaps non-Hasidic?) community? Is it only the graphic arts that are not understood? What about writers?

For me the point isn't that the community didn't get it and should have, just that I don't see a difference between Asher and Aryeh's selfishness, if that's what it is.

I am not saying that the community should have gotten Asher's art, just that, as a culture, they didn't. It wasn't a part of their culture they way that Aryeh's job was. The community did not see Aryeh's occupaton as being selfish, because he was striving to better the community, regardless of of personal cost to his family. They saw Asher's gift as a selfish preoccupation with foolishness, that did nothing but cause grief for his family and community.

I sort of identified with Asher's reactions to his father's job. My dad was in the Navy, and when I was 9, we were transferred overseas. Whatever my dad's job was (classified of course), it required to be away from us for a full month every other month. It was very wearing on my family. During this time, my mother's drinking became very bad and I did poorly in school. This went on for three years before we returned stateside, and my parents divorced a year later.

On one hand, you could say my dad was serving his country, regardless of the cost to his family. I know it tore him up every time he had to leave us. Was he being selfish then? I can't say he was. I can't say Aryeh is being selfish, because, even though Asher's point of view tells us Aryeh feels about travelling, he doesn't tell us how he feels about actually leaving his family.

I would say that Asher's choices are more selfish, because they seem to be more rooted in how he feels about doing something rather than he he perceives others will react to it. Although we can say that art makes the world a better place, that is not the reason Asher paints. Asher paints because he is driven to create. Any good, or bad, that comes of it is secondary.