Think someone from ME did eventually confirm that Halfrek and Cecily were the same person.

Not exactly. Marti said they wanted to use the actress again, but knew the fans would recognize her, so they wrote in the little, "William" to acknowledge it.

I think it may have something to do with Buffy being based on the idea of rewriting the sacrificial death of girls to give hope--so she had to live; and Angel being based on a more traditional idea of atonement, so that the proper tragic ending, where he dies but the torch is passed on, doesn't strike me as violating the precept of the series.

Micole, I need to get another folder for my "why I love Micole" citations. This is perfect. And correct. And wonderful.

Well, I didn't get that far into it. I think it was mostly that I find Buffy a fundamentally hopeful show--that explains a lot about my frustration with S6 and S7, really--whereas Angel, not so much. Angel says to me that there can be grace even in darkness; Buffy says to me that that you can get a damn generator and turn the lights on.

Oh! Need new folder for Katie, too. This is beautiful. Katie, may I please tag this part:

Angel says to me that there can be grace even in darkness; Buffy says to me that that you can get a damn generator and turn the lights on.

t love

Dang. A girl goes to staff meetings all day and misses the birth of a whole new, super-sad thread. I skimmed, but one topic jumped out that I just went over with a friend.

During Drogyn's murder, I kept thinking back to Illyria and Angel's conversation in 'Time Bomb' about serving nothing but your ambition, etc. I think that Drogyn really might have been collateral damage to Angel. The mission is all that matters to him now- from the sound of this speech to the gang at the end, he's taking them ALL on a suicide mission. They're all expendable.

Angel isn't Angelus, but maybe the corrupt ruler Illyria was describing to Spike still isn't that far off.

The mission is all that matters to him now- from the sound of this speech to the gang at the end, he's taking them ALL on a suicide mission. They're all expendable.

The small hole in that theory is that he bothered to send Wolfgirl and family away. Though that could be explained away as them being non-combatants.

I did say it was small.

IIRC, it's something Tim said -- to the end of "Show called 'Angel' not 'Needy Multi-Ethnic Street Kids'" to explain why more time wasn't spent with Gunn's gang.

That was me. My first interaction with Tim, me bitching about Gunn. He added the capitalization.

he's taking them ALL on a suicide mission. They're all expendable.

He's taking himself on a suicide mission, too. He's as expendable as any of them. And he gave them the option to say no.

Of course Drogyn is immortal so maybe he just needs some ointment for a broken neck.

Did they state Drogyn was immortal? Or did they state he had eternal youth? It seems like the hit that Angel put out on him wasn't meant to kill him -- if it couldn't kill him, why mention the non-lethal nature?

He's taking himself on a suicide mission, too. He's as expendable as any of them. And he gave them the option to say no

He did give them the option, because he needs them to die fighting, not just to die. It's not personal, he loves these guys. I'm sure he's not itching to die himself. But the number one priority has become the mission.

Not to say that's bad. This could be one of the first times that Angel has really displayed some strong, decisive leadership.

Angel says to me that there can be grace even in darkness; Buffy says to me that that you can get a damn generator and turn the lights on.

I like this a lot. I agree with Katie and Micole that somehow a MoG all die fighting ending is appropriate and I agree with the reasons you guys stated, but there's something else about why it works that I can't put my finger on. Maybe it's because BtVS became in its last few years a show about how suffering and fighting alienates you, while AtS has consistently been a more personal show about how suffering transforms you (in good or not so good ways)? I'm having a hard time articulating this.

It could also be that I still believe the MoG are a family, and I stopped believing that during the last two seasons of BtVS. Even though Angel's reasoning for this big fight seems rather idiotic, that last seen on Wednesday was beautiful. Power Play showed again how much all these guys love each other and the idea of them choosing to die together seemed based more on love than on necessity. In a way, I'm all right with that.

Hmm. Maybe it was just eternally young. Can't remember.

somehow a MoG all die fighting ending is appropriate

Agree with this, but either Spike or Angel will have to survive or at least become human sometime within the next week so that they can die and complete the Shanshu prophecy.

ETA: "Just" eternally young. This programme messes with one's standards.