The tvtome rating is an impressive 9.21 for the finale. I think "yay" is a pretty general consensus.

Faith=Hot

I just have to disagree with this, here. Faith ≠ Hot, Faith > Hot.

The only thing that bothered me was the Drogyn thing.

There was a specific point made that Drogyn had been given, not immortality, but "eternal youth." He didn't look young when Angel killed him. He was withered and his hair was faded and almost gone. There was also the thing about him not being able to lie. Now I don't remember, and I don't have time, blast it, for a rewatch, but was the eternal youth tied to the not-lying? As in, if he did lie, he lost that gift? Because I'm thinking that Drogyn was both exhausted from living/fighting/guarding ancient evil gods, and was feeling guilty over allowing Illyria to escape the Well and cause Fred's death. I'm thinking that Drogyn was ready to die, and took the opportunity Angel offered to die in the service of a final screw-you to the SP. Further evidence, I feel, is that Drogyn said "Thank you," to Angel when he pulled him away from the guys who were beating him (which is also further evidence that he was old - young strong Drogyn would've kicked them to pieces) and I don't think he was saying thanks for saving me, but thanks for ending me. What I need to rewatch for is to find out if, somewhere in his conversation with the MoG, Drogyn lied about something. Does anyone recall?

Or am I full of crap?

I should probably edit for clarity, but clarity isn't coming. Sorry. Must sleep now.

Just re-watched "Not Fade Away" and I liked it just as much on the second time through. The Lindsey thing still bugs, but going by what Lorne and Lindsey say in that scene, I think it's pretty clear that Lorne was under Angel's orders, but the decision was based at least partly on one of Lorne's readings. I just wish we'd had an explanation this season of how/why Lindsey declined from where we saw him in "Dead End." Wes' death still kills me, even knowing it's coming. I was actually surprised at how quickly paced it feels, it felt like I'd only popped the tape in 15 minutes before and it was over.

Odd little detail I noticed on rewatch, the devil-guy actually grabs his tail and holds it close so he doesn't get it caught in the car door. Not sure why this amused me.

I sympathize for the people that didn't like it. After the drek that was the X-Files finale, I understand how much it sucks to be disappointed by the ending of a show you loved. (For those into anime, the final (post TV-series) Rorouni Kenshin OVA was also a severe dissapointment for me, though nowhere near as bad as "The Truth".) I'd be interested to hear what exactly didn't work for people, but I understand not wanting to harsh the mellow here.

Now I don't remember, and I don't have time, blast it, for a rewatch, but was the eternal youth tied to the not-lying? As in, if he did lie, he lost that gift?

I don't know. I believe folklore and mythology has a lot of instances where a gift is tied into a restriction of some kind, so it would definitely make sense.

However, I don't believe we ever saw him lie on-screen. So yeah, loose-end, which admittedly there were a few.

I'm thinking the eternal youth was tied to the proximity of guarding the well and the lie combined.

Edited because I was definitely overreacting.

Sorry, folks, nothing to see here.

I only have Buffy S2 on DVD (it's pricey to put a collection together all at once), so I re-watched Becoming #1 and #2. My grand theory is that Whistler worked for the Senior Partners. My philosopy of W&H is that it is an actor favoring evil but also favoring survival so it could continue doing evil. I think Angel S5 provided a great way of exposing that W&H's view of the apocalypse that it was ongoing, manageable and could last a long time. Sudden and unpredictable endings take away the firm's control of things. Better the devil you know...

...so Whistler in my mind wanted Angel prepared to prevent Acathla from swallowing the world because it disrupted things, made a mess, so to speak. W&H's continued viability stemmed from the fact that it doesn't put the world into Hell (or a hell dimension) all at once. Whistler used Buffy as a canard to shape Angel up, because on its face, it's absurd to have a vampire (even a souled one) watch over the fate of a Slayer. Perhaps W&H considered it a good internship before stepping into the big time.

Just my two cents.

When I saw Drogyn, I believed he'd been tortured. There were cuts on his scalp that indicated, to me, that he'd been partially shaved with a sword or other sharp implement not intended for cutting hair. The paler hair, what there was of it, looked blond to me, rather than gray or white. It seemed to me that the beating he was getting was just the latest in a series of abuses that started the moment Hamilton got his hands on Drogyn, and he knew they wouldn't stop. He saw Angel as his savior. I don't think, at that moment, he knew if Angel was there to kill him or to rescue him, but perhaps, through the torture, he forgot that he believed Angel had tried to kill him and just, at that moment, remembered that Angel was his friend. I think Angel did rescue him, because I don't think they would have let either one of them walk out of there alive, even if Angel hadn't killed Drogyn.

No, we realized that trying to denigrate something others were calling the most perfect thing ever, full of deep metaphorical meaning that touched their hearts was cruel and self-defeating. We went to LJ.

Where at LJ? I don't feel the hate, but I'm ambivalent about sections, and would be interested in reading some of this.

I still feel the whole Lindsey offing is weird, though. I know he kept stabbing Angel in the back, but it just felt wrong, somehow.

Might this be a setup for a movie? It seems so unfinished. Also, the unfinished end left me thinking that fighting the good fight was the direction they would go, but ME is notorious for not doing what people think they'll do, except when you think that they won't do the obvious, so then they have to. Argh! It's too late to get my mind around this.